From: Magmax (magmax@bigpond.net.au)
Date: Mon Apr 03 2006 - 06:26:06 GMT-3
To the guy who started this discussion,
CCIE is not about money it is about respect and learning more
First of all I don't have bachelor's degree but do earn a lot more than you.
When I went to college after doing CCNP I felt like it is just to basics and
I passed exam with high marks without any studies.
Two years back I started studying CCIE and still going strong. CCIE is
challenging and I learn everyday and every week
I think CCIE is more focussed study whereas bachelors or master is more like
general studies. I will still complete my bachelors for sake of it :) but I
don't think I will learn heaps from it
This is just my two cents
Regards,
Ubaid
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Kumar Raja-Q16843
Sent: Monday, 3 April 2006 6:12 PM
To: cisco@groupstudy.com; ccielab@groupstudy.com
Cc: Mohamed T. Kondela
Subject: RE: CCIE vs. degree
Hi All,
Mohamed, you are right, but then I took a break with this mail. I
wonder, One could spend so much time and energy and still be so
ridiculous in penning down this mail.
By the way, he says, he wishes to be Professor one day, my advice is,
sorry I beg you, please dont become one, till now I have had great
respect for Profs, don't try to spoil that man.
Thanking you,
Yours very sincerely,
Raja
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Mohamed T. Kondela
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 1:02 PM
To: Cisco Engineer; cisco@groupstudy.com; ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: RE: CCIE vs. degree
This guy is a spoiled one. I don't know what he wants to achieve? My
group... please doesn't feel desperate, keep going...!!
If you are pointing @ cert grabbers, look @ your own profile..! Did you
ever benefit from whole bunch of degrees and certifications you own..?
mohamed
Mohamed T. Kondela
Senior Network Engineer
IT Dept.
Fax: 4473037 x 303
mtaib@sagia.gov.sa
Saudi Arabian General Investment Authority
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-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Cisco Engineer
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 9:05 AM
To: cisco@groupstudy.com; ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: CCIE vs. degree
From time to time I read people trying to compare CCIE with some kind of
degree; I thought that this may be cool to share my own experience. In
general, I agree with what nrf has mentioned throughout the last many
years!
But in some points we are different.
Let me share my background first. I got my Bachelor of Applied Science
(Engineering degree) back in 1998. And then I work as a Network
Engineer until last August. During the last six years, I was working
full time as a Network engineer, got my CCXX (I am a CCIE of 7xxx series
in RS (second
try)
and Security (first try)) and picked up Master of Engineering and MBA
(from top 25 US b-schools) along the way (M.Eng/MBA+CCIE+full time
work).
Then I
quitted my job last year and return to school full time (yes, some CCIE
like me switched career) to study PhD in operation management (from
top-25 b-school). In terms of the Cisco cert, it took me 2 years in the
industry to get from nothing to CCIE. During the last 1 year where I
actively study for CCIE, I spent 3 or 4 hours during weekday and 3 or 4
hours during weekend to study. (I dont consider myself to be very
smart, because I have seen so many smarter people around me!)
Therefore, with my background, I hope that it makes my point a bit more
persuasive.
I know that you may find some of the comparison is like comparing apple
to orange. So please bear with me... (You are free to delete this email
if you dislike my comparison.) Because otherwise, every comparison can
be apple to orange, even comparing CCIE Security to CCIE Voice.
1. Compare CCIE to PhD or even to Master degree (assume it is not from
some no-name school) is ridiculous. According to my own experience,
CCIE at most can be as hard as a second year calculus (yes, just a
single second year
course, not even a bachelor degree). The content of CCIE is not
difficult at all, assume that you can master differential equation.
2. The passing rate of CCIE lab exam is much lower than the passing rate
of any courses (PhD, Master, and Bachelor). There are two reasons.
First,
there are lots of low-quality people taking the CCIE lab exam, which
drag down the CCIE passing rate. Second, it really takes a longer time
to study for the CCIE lab exam than a second year calculus. It is
because first year calculus has already prepared me for the second year
calculus. Also, it is difficult to have the time, resource to study.
And most of all, this is an expensive and stressful exam! All things
being equal (no stress, cheap exam), I think that for people who can get
an A or B in the second year calculus, I think that he can pass the CCIE
lab exam within 3 months after CCNA level if he can study full time,
with all equipment, have all the material and have a teacher to ask when
he/she had problem.
3. CCIE is not god of networking. CCIE is only god of passing CCIE exam
and nothing else. For instances, you don't need to know Poisson process
or any queuing algorithm (you don't call yourself "knowing" FIFO/PQ/WFQ
if all you know is just some simple calculation or configuration) to
pass the CCIE written exam (and for the lab exam, you need to know
NOTHING about queuing, other than how to configure it). I never claim
myself good at networking at all. When I need to configure a network,
all I can say is that, "let's see how far I can go". (I don't mean that
I am lack of self-confidence in front of the customer. I just mean that
I really know that there is so many things that I have absolutely no
idea about.) Therefore, expect some CCIE coming to your company to know
how to complete all your requirement is ridiculous.
I can fake to know lots in front of others, but in the bottom of my
heart, I know that I have many limits.
4. As opposed to what nrf once mentioned, PhD is god of their own field.
This is oxymoron if you are PhD but you are not god in your own field.
After you have spent five years in something as narrow as, let say,
Virtual Link of OSPF (not everything about OSPF, but only the virtual
link), then you should be god of Virtual link of OSPF. Therefore, a PhD
knows everything about nothing. To continue my analogy, if you ask a
PhD about a stub OSPF network (nevertheless other routing protocol, or
switching, or
security/voice), that PhD may not know. (Contrast to a CCIE, who knows
little bit about several Cisco things)
5. The average salary of a CCIE (assume with the same year of
experience) is
higher than the average salary of any degree (except MBA). A history
full professor only makes $40k, and a business professor (on the high
end) would make about $100k. But a CCIE would likely make more than
$100k (even though I made less than $50k when I was a CCIE)
6. As opposed to what nrf once mentioned, being admitted is NOT the most
difficult part of graduating from a top school. It is certainly true
that being admitted to a top school is tough. (Being admited to the
bachelor
degree of top school is very hard, and being admited to a top school's
PhD program is almost impossible. You think that the average passing
rate of CCIE lab is 3 times is low? What about the admission rate of
top school is 3-10%, with all the applicant are the best of the best in
their own
school?)
But if you think that you will graduate simply because you are
admitted, you are dead wrong. Of course getting through the
once-per-year admission cycle is very hard. However, the project and
the homework will kill you!
Everything else (compare to the intense 8 hours CCIE lab) is walk in
park.
7. (Since I am interested to be a professor, let me devote my last point
for those who are currently a professor). Continue from #6. If you
think that graduating from a top PhD school is tough, then how about
able to find a
tenure-track job from a top school? And if you think that you are hired
by a top school is tough, how about making the tenure? (my point is,
difficult never ends...)
My post by no means to devalue CCIE certificate. Having a degree would
only get you the ticket for admission. So does having a CCIE
certificate.
The
rest is still up to you. However, it is true that having a CCIE or
having a degree have a strong relationship to being able to success in
your career.
therefore, this is a good and quick tool for the HR to filter out lots
of people. Of course there is outlier, such as Bill Gates. However, do
you
think that you are the next Bill Gates? You may think so, but the HR or
the hiring manager may not share your thought! If they don't hire you,
then
start another company, get rich, and buy that company (like how AOL
purchased Times)
This is my 2 cents. (That's the beauty about academic. In the
networking
world, there is only one way to do stuff (aka Cisco way) but in
academia, you have freedom to express your controversial thought!)
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