From: supernet (supernet@comcast.net)
Date: Sat Jul 23 2005 - 01:14:29 GMT-3
Why not simply go for a degree?
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Dillon Yang
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 7:21 PM
To: 'Ed Tan'; 'Group Study'
Subject: GSIE vs ccie program Re: Lee's failed the 2nd
"psychology"?
OK, everybody, please add a psychology course before your lab exam, about
1250 bucks. :)
It seems inconsistent with "any particular technology"!
"a different way"?
Yes, we ALL KNOW ccie lab exam has a different way in wording and grading,
and we ALL work hard to approach this like blind donkey, BUT actually, it
blocks us to approach, based on its performance. I believe it is
questionable if you can not get a objective grading,
=============================================
I have a suggestion that we should ally together to form an individual
certification from the vendors such as cisco, juniper, or 3com.
The individual certification may be called GSIE. GSIE supplies service by
NMC,IP and etc. since they all have a system of racks and practical labs and
grading service. Therefore, the training vendors may end up the contending
state for the gaudy ccie PRIVATE program.
Objective of GSIE
GSIE will provide a public grading for engineers in IP world. The relation
between GSIE and CCIE is equivalent, similar to IETF and ITU, or IELTS and
TOFEL, BUT GSIE's grading will be more justicial and more chances for
product vendors and more seats for candidates. GSIE will provide numerical
result instead of pass or failed, that may be 50% or 93%, and with which a
candidate can show to his boss or friends.
Value of GSIE
GSIE will express the exam with a plain wording excluding any word game.
The difficulty will equal to CCIE or excel it.
I experienced the NMC CHECKiT lab, it was harder than any my attempt in ccie
lab, the IP and etc. should be, I guess.
Location of GSIE
GSIE will get benefit from the PROMETRIC or VUE or others without
face-to-face like CCIE. But GSIE should provide more security on exam. Since
a candidate in ccie lab exam is actually using remote telnet to finish the
configuration of devices, a testing center will adapt to the requirement.
All what the ccie proctor need to do, is watching you for not talking and
not calling a phone and not taking away exam stuffs, that is a simple and
tasteless work, so fewer and fewer proctors appear in HK location. Then, a
thoughtful remote exam will be successful.
Update of GSIE
To prevent cheating in exam, GSIE will prepare a large database of exam
like IELTS or GRE. So, it is allowed for a candidates to discuss his scores
and to learn the way to work out.
=====================================
Any advice will be welcome.
Caslow (NMC), Brain (IP), Marc(NLC)
TIA
dillon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Morris" <swm@emanon.com>
To: "'Ed Tan'" <tytanx@gmail.com>; "'Group Study'" <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 2:52 AM
Subject: RE: I Failed for the 2nd time yesterday in Brussels, has the R& S
lab got more tricky??
> The test is as much psychology and logic as it is any particular
technology.
>
> No matter how many practice labs that you and up doing, that by itself
will
> NOT prepare you for the real exam. Although each of the test vendor's and
> bootcamp vendor's has some bright people working with them, each one has a
> different perspective about the lab. Each one is different in their focus
> on style and technology. And even though you may master one vendor's
> viewpoint and feel very comfortable, going to the real exam gives someone
> else's perspective.
>
> This isn't really any different than when some of us old farts took our
exam
> back where there wasn't much (or any) prep material. No matter how much
we
> studied, or how many weird things we thought up and went through, there
was
> always SOMETHING that someone else thought of or a different way that
wasn't
> practiced.
>
> Knowing your technologies is great! Having a good sense of logic is
great!
> You need to be able to think things through and know what your router is
> thinking and why things happen the way they do. This is a thinking test,
> not a practice and memorize test. And don't forget, the DocCD is your
> friend. In fact, in the middle of the exam, it's the ONLY friend you
have.
> Know it well!
>
> Asking how much practice is enough is a question that you are the only
that
> can answer. The lab is not simple at all, but any complicated task can be
> broken down into a collection of simple tasks. It just takes a certain
> level of understanding and logic to do that many times. Pay attention to
> this list as some interesting things are discussed in depth! Just
remember
> that since none of us are allowed to discuss or duplicate what we've seen
on
> labs, the practice labs you get will always represent someone's
> interpretation of a "fleeting thought" that sounds like a good thing to
> bring in.
>
> 80% only sounds easy until you're in the middle of the exam. :) From
what
> I've heard, the average number of attempts to pass is approaching 4 per
> person. That means some get there faster, others do not. At some point
in
> your prep, you will simply need to suck it up and just take the exam!
Maybe
> you've prepped enough by then, maybe you learn that you haven't. Either
> way, you now have a better perspective of practice labs versus the real
one
> and can fine-tune your studying for the next time as necessary.
>
> As for wording on the exam, I will agree that we aren't supposed to read
> Shakespeare (For whom doth the bell toll?) but wherever wording isn't
clear,
> you should ask the proctor until you understand what is being asked! But
> you also need to remember that this is not a reality-based exam. It's a
> technology-based one. If it were common reality, your frame relay cloud
> would consist of very simple point to point subinterfaces and nobody would
> bother turnin off inverse arp. :) But if we all did that, where would
the
> value be in knowing whether someone really understands that stuff or not?
>
> I don't mean to sound discouraging here... Some people will pass the lab
on
> their first try! But they even never really know whether their prep was
> enough until they are done. At some point, you simply need to take a
> chance!
>
> Best of luck!
>
> HTH,
>
> Scott
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of Ed
> Tan
> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 12:54 PM
> To: Group Study
> Subject: Re: I Failed for the 2nd time yesterday in Brussels, has the R& S
> lab got more tricky??
>
> Dillion, well written! I just passed my written test and actively
practicing
> my lab base on IEWB. I have scheduled to do my lab on Sept, but after
> reading your comment, I doubt I should postpone my lab till next year?
> Before this, I always think that after practicing for more than 20 labs, a
> 80% passing score is not a big deal, but ...... ??? Base on your comment,
I
> would like to know, how much practice is enough?
>
> Ed
>
>
> On 7/22/05, Dillon Yang <dillony@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Lucky? Unlucky?
> > Is CCIE lab exam a gamble game?
> > Lee, we are in the SAME boat, you and me, the same day.
> > I believe the CCIE lab exam is unfair.
> >
> > First, it forbids you to get feedback from exam by so-called NDA, you
> > can not leak your scores to the others, meanwhile, it ask you for
> > feedback to help them to work better.
> > Everyone knows that the feedback is important for learning. Why can we
> > speak? Because we can listen! We can speak more than one languages by
> > listening. We speak scrannel words and the others point out the
> > mistakes and we learn the correct speaking by the feedback. Therefore,
> > the deafs can not speak though they can shout sometimes. Fortunately,
> > or Unfortunately, I experienced a repeated topology in my last
> > attempt, but I still got no more than the last score in IGP and BGP
> > that I had labbed thousands times. I still can not understand why I
> > could not get the 100% in Bridging, IGP, BGP since a perfect TCLSH
> > worked well. In fact, it has nothing to show your weak point such as
> > ineligible configuration or lack of verification or something else. So,
> How can we get progress in this situation?
> >
> > Second, the gaudy wording. An engineer's responsibility is to help his
> > clients to finish networking, not to read Shakespeare. The tricks in
> > the lab will never appear in the conversations of his client. So, it
> > is obvious that it helps something out of technology.
> >
> > Third, it is originally a PRIVATE certification, not public ones such
> > as GRE. The candidate's scores should be able to discussed publicly if
> > it was justicial. You have no way to appeal the problem in your lab
> > unless you would like to pay more 250 bucks. The command "isdn test"
> > could not assure the link is OK and caused the router show
> "software-error" and reboot.
> >
> > The real reason, I think, for a long-term exam, it is lazy to update
> > the contents of lab exam, and it keep the lab in a mysterious state to
> > prevent cheating. However, a lot of cheating materials come from the
> > unfenced method. Do you ofter receive the email with titled "real
> > lab"? The cheating materials will be invalid if it is diligent in
> > updating and keeping the lab fresh.
> >
> > IMHO
> > dillon
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lee Donald" <Lee.Donald@t-systems.co.uk>
> > To: "Amit Jain" <netsteps@rediffmail.com>; "Group Study" <
> > ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 5:19 PM
> > Subject: RE: I Failed for the 2nd time yesterday in Brussels, has the
> > R& S lab got more tricky??
> >
> >
> > > Hi Amit,
> > >
> > > With all the success stories maybe you might think it is easy, but
> > > you
> > would
> > > be wrong. People don't tend to tell you when they've failed, only
> > > when they've passed.
> > > The CCIE Lab is the most sort after exam to get, and companies pay
> > > top dollar for a CCIE Engineer. Well there's a reason for this, and
> > > it's not because the exam is easy. It's because the exam is very
> > > difficult, and people have to study and really know there stuff
> > > before they pass it
> > that's
> > > why.
> > >
> > > I used Internetworking Expert for my workbook and their on-demand
> > classes
> > > which are both worth every penny. Only my personnel choice.
> > >
> > > I think you can judge your readiness when you start knowing what the
> > > questions relate to, and you understand them, as oppose to just
> > > knowing that you have to add this command to get it working.
> > >
> > > In my opinion I was ready and still am, but it depends on your luck
> > > on
> > the
> > > day.
> > >
> > > Maybe 3rd time lucky? I can't be unlucky forever!!
> > >
> > > HTH
> > >
> > > Lee.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Amit Jain [mailto:netsteps@rediffmail.com]
> > > Sent: 22 July 2005 09:48
> > > To: Group Study
> > > Subject: Re: I Failed for the 2nd time yesterday in Brussels, has
> > > the
> > R&S
> > > lab got more tricky??
> > >
> > > Lee
> > >
> > > Out of all bad things that must have happened with you, one good
> > > thing
> > you
> > > did was to give your feedback. By reading all the success stories
> > > many
> > of us
> > > who will be appearing for first attempt may tend to think that lab
> > > is
> > not
> > > all that complex and hard to crack. After reading a story such as
> > > yours,
> > we
> > > need to make sure within ourselves that the measures we take to
> > > judge
> > our
> > > rediness, should be concrete and full-proof to save repeated waste
> > > of
> > time,
> > > effort and money.
> > >
> > > Amit jain
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Arun Arumuganainar" <aarumuga@hotmail.com>
> > > To: "De Witt, Duane" <duane.dewitt@siemens.com>; "Lee Donald"
> > > <Lee.Donald@t-systems.co.uk>; "Group Study" <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > > Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 1:42 PM
> > > Subject: Re: I Failed for the 2nd time yesterday in Brussels, has
> > > the
> > R&S
> > > lab got more tricky??
> > >
> > >
> > > > In such a case you can apply for re-valuation !!! I think it cost
> > another
> > > > 250 Bucks but there are incidences where in candidates have
> > > > actually
> > > passed
> > > > after this process .
> > > >
> > > > I remember some body telling me about the evaluation processes .
> > > > It
> > will
> > > go
> > > > on like this .
> > > >
> > > > First , A script will be running . If the script returns a score
> > > > which
> > is
> > > > very close to 80 ( Band of 65 to 100 ) . Then Manual evaluation
> > > > will
> > be
> > > > done by the proctor .
> > > >
> > > > Note : Even when score is say 90 or 100 will mandate manual
> > > > evaluation
> > .
> > > >
> > > > Also all our conversation are store is server . While doing
> > > > evaluation
> > > those
> > > > configuration are uploaded on the routers and script will running
> > > > on
> > it
> > > !!!
> > > > So given the system of evaluation we need to do the following
> > > > before
> > we
> > > > leave the lab .
> > > >
> > > > 1) Save all the configuration .
> > > > 2) Reload all the router and check still the features are working
> > > > as
> > given
> > > > in the question sheet .
> > > >
> > > > These two steps will prepare us for script evaluation .
> > > >
> > > > Thanks and Regards
> > > > Arun
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "De Witt, Duane" <duane.dewitt@siemens.com>
> > > > To: "Lee Donald" <Lee.Donald@t-systems.co.uk>; "Group Study"
> > > > <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > > > Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 12:17 PM
> > > > Subject: RE: I Failed for the 2nd time yesterday in Brussels, has
> > > > the
> > R&S
> > > > lab got more tricky??
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > I had the same experience with my BGP. I had character for
> > > > > character what they asked for and still didn't get the points.
> > > > > This makes me believe that the proctors don't actually look at
> > > > > the output but just
> > run
> > > > > it through the script and leave it at that.
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On
> > > > > Behalf
> > Of
> > > > > Lee Donald
> > > > > Sent: 21 July 2005 02:56 PM
> > > > > To: 'Group Study'
> > > > > Subject: I Failed for the 2nd time yesterday in Brussels, has
> > > > > the
> > R&S
> > > > > lab got more tricky??
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Group,
> > > > >
> > > > > I failed for the 2nd time yesterday in Brussels after a mammoth
> > effort
> > > > > of
> > > > > studying and courses etc.
> > > > > When I walked out the door I was fairly sure I'd passed (which
> > > > > makes
> > it
> > > > > even
> > > > > worse) but what I can't understand is their marking, probably
> > > > > won't
> > ever
> > > > > understand it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Certain sections like my BGP were spot on and running like a
> > > > > brand
> > new
> > > > > BMW (
> > > > > so I thought) they even gave you screen outputs of what your
> > > > > "show
> > ip
> > > > > bgp "
> > > > > should look like, well mine looked like that but I got 39%.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't know whether their testing you to see if you know and
> > > > > can configure the technology, or trying to trip you up with
> > > > > Cryptic questions that
> > are
> > > > > designed to mislead you.
> > > > >
> > > > > Any Comments, sorry having a Hate Cisco day.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards
> > > > >
> > > > > Lee.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: ccie2be [mailto:ccie2be@nyc.rr.com]
> > > > > Sent: 21 July 2005 12:48
> > > > > To: 'Shanky'; 'Group Study'
> > > > > Subject: RE: OSPF: Remember old DR 2.1.1.10 <http://2.1.1.10>
> > > > > (id)
> > ... why ?
> > > > >
> > > > > Shanky,
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't know if this answers your question directly but I can
> > > > > tell
> > you
> > > > > this.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Ospf doesn't use preemption in the election of the DR and BDR.
> > Because
> > > > > of
> > > > > this ospf is more stable on a broadcast segment. Once a DR is
> > elected,
> > > > > that
> > > > > router will remain as the DR even if another router on the same
> > segment
> > > > > comes on line with a higher priority.
> > > > >
> > > > > This being the case, I guess that its necessary for a non-Dr and
> > non-BDR
> > > > > router to remember who the DR and BDR were if it were to go down
> > > > > so
> > that
> > > > > when it comes back up it knows with which routers to
> > > > > re-establish adjacencies with.
> > > > >
> > > > > As far as the lab goes, I don't think this detail is that
important.
> > > > > What's
> > > > > really important is that you're aware of this non-preempt
> > > > > behavior
> > so
> > > > > that
> > > > > when you configure ospf on a broadcast or nbma segment, you know
> > > > > to
> > set
> > > > > the
> > > > > priority to 0 on routers which should not become the DR or BDR
> > before
> > > > > bringing the router up on the segment.
> > > > >
> > > > > HTH, Tim
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On
> > > > > Behalf
> > Of
> > > > > Shanky
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 1:20 AM
> > > > > To: Group Study
> > > > > Subject: OSPF: Remember old DR 2.1.1.10 <http://2.1.1.10> (id) ...
> > why ?
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > > I got the foll output with debug ip ospf adj when I shut the
> > > > > serial
> > to
> > > > > FR
> > > > > switch down on the spoke in NBMA mode. Why does the router
> > > > > remember
> > who
> > > > > the
> > > > > old DR was as shown in the output ? I mean, once new DR is
> > > > > selected, even if the old DR comes back online (Say after a
> > > > > crash), it doesnt affect.
> > > > > **Mar 1 16:15:15.799: OSPF: Remember old DR
> 2.1.1.10<http://2.1.1.10><
> > http://2.1.1.10>
> > > > > (id)
> > > > > ... why does the router remember the old DR?* *Mar 1
> > > > > 16:15:15.795: OSPF: Interface Serial0/0 going Down *Mar 1
> > > > > 16:15:15.795: OSPF: 1.1.1.1 <http://1.1.1.1> <http://1.1.1.1>
> > address
> > > > > 1.1.1.1 <http://1.1.1.1><http://1.1.1.1>on Serial0/0 is dead,
> > > > > state DOWN *Mar 1 16:15:15.795: OSPF: Neighbor change Event on
> > > > > interface
> > Serial0/0
> > > > > *Mar 1 16:15:15.795: OSPF: DR/BDR election on Serial0/0 *Mar 1
> > > > > 16:15:15.795: OSPF: Elect BDR 0.0.0.0 <http://0.0.0.0> <
> > http://0.0.0.0>
> > > > > *Mar 1 16:15:15.795: OSPF: Elect DR 2.1.1.10 <http://2.1.1.10> <
> > http://2.1.1.10>
> > > > > *Mar 1 16:15:15.795: OSPF: Elect BDR 0.0.0.0 <http://0.0.0.0> <
> > http://0.0.0.0>
> > > > > *Mar 1 16:15:15.795: OSPF: Elect DR 2.1.1.10 <http://2.1.1.10> <
> > http://2.1.1.10>
> > > > > *Mar 1 16:15:15.799: DR: 2.1.1.10 <http://2.1.1.10>
> > > > > <http://2.1.1.10>
> > (Id) BDR: none
> > > > > *Mar 1 16:15:15.799: OSPF: 2.1.1.10 <http://2.1.1.10> <
> > http://2.1.1.10> address
> > > > > 1.1.1.2 <http://1.1.1.2><http://1.1.1.2>on Serial0/0 is dead,
> > > > > state DOWN *Mar 1 16:15:15.799: %OSPF-5-ADJCHG: Process 1, Nbr
> > > > > 2.1.1.10 <http://2.1.1.10><http://2.1.1.10>on Serial0/0 from
> > > > > FULL to DOWN, Neighbor Down: Interface down or detached *Mar 1
> > > > > 16:15:15.799: OSPF: Neighbor change Event on interface
> > Serial0/0
> > > > > *Mar 1 16:15:15.799: OSPF: DR/BDR election on Serial0/0 *Mar 1
> > > > > 16:15:15.799: OSPF: Elect BDR 0.0.0.0 <http://0.0.0.0> <
> > http://0.0.0.0>
> > > > > *Mar 1 16:15:15.799: OSPF: Elect DR 0.0.0.0 <http://0.0.0.0> <
> > http://0.0.0.0>
> > > > > *Mar 1 16:15:15.799: DR: none BDR: none **Mar 1 16:15:15.799:
> > > > > OSPF: Remember old DR
> 2.1.1.10<http://2.1.1.10><
> > http://2.1.1.10>
> > > > > (id)*
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > ______________________________________________________________________
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