From: Howard C. Berkowitz (hcb@gettcomm.com)
Date: Thu Jul 15 2004 - 20:51:40 GMT-3
At 6:44 PM -0500 7/15/04, Jason Graun wrote:
>A malpractice static
The one that explained, in OB/GYN class, false pregnancy as "laboring
under a misconception."
I could, I suppose, go off on a tangent on how TCP throughput can be
described with a cardiac output model, or vice versa.
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
>Steve Smith
>Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 12:27 PM
>To: swm@emanon.com; jgraun@comcast.net; Scott Sattler;
>security@groupstudy.com
>Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
>Subject: RE: all September seats are gone
>
>Hey Scott that reminds me of that joke: What do you call a doctor that
>graduated last in his class......doctor!
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Scott Morris [mailto:swm@emanon.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 11:48 AM
>To: Steve Smith; jgraun@comcast.net; 'Scott Sattler';
>security@groupstudy.com
>Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
>Subject: RE: all September seats are gone
>
>
>That's a bit further than logic dictates guys. Besides, if you have
>passed and you don't feel it's of value, you can always relegate the
>title by not recertifying within two years like some others have done...
>Or, do something to make sure you separate yourself from the "assumed
>pack".
>
>MCSEs work the same way. If working on Microsoft networks is your life
>(and there's nothing wrong with that), then make sure that people don't
>view you as a paper MCSE.
>
>Having done the CNE and the MCSE paths myself, at the point in time when
>I did them, they were important and I was pretty damned good at it.
>Just outgrew it. If you are concerned though about what the CCIE will
>turn into, do something about it!
>
>Some doctors are much better than others. Do we decide that medical
>school or the board exams are worthless? No, it's called economics or
>Social Darwinism... The fit will survive. Be fit. :)
>
>
>Scott Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713,
>CISSP, JNCIP, et al. IPExpert CCIE Program Manager IPExpert Sr.
>Technical Instructor swm@emanon.com/smorris@ipexpert.net
>http://www.ipexpert.net
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
>Steve Smith
>Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 11:24 AM
>To: jgraun@comcast.net; Scott Sattler; security@groupstudy.com
>Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
>Subject: RE: all September seats are gone
>
>LOL!!! I hear ya!
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: jgraun@comcast.net [mailto:jgraun@comcast.net]
>Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 10:21 AM
>To: Steve Smith; Scott Sattler; security@groupstudy.com
>Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
>Subject: RE: all September seats are gone
>
>
>Thanks for the support Steve! MCSE now stands for Must Call Someone
>Else when I did it, it still had some value. I am concerned CCIE will
>be Cisco Certifies Idiots Everyday.
>
>
>Jason
>
>
>> I agree with you Jason. I have always had a HUGE problem with people
> > saying "I am working on my CCNP/MCSE/CNE so I can get a job in IT". I
>> worked for a guy that at raise time would always say why should I pay
>> you X amount a year more when I can get a college grad who just passed
>
>> his MCSE and will do the job for 15K less a year. I would just say
>> well when the network stops because his server is BSOD I wonder who
>> will get it back up the quickest mr.paper MCSE or Mr. Been doing
>> Microsoft installs since 1993? As you know the CNE was a huge cert
>> 10-12 years ago. If you had it you where the man in OS. Then every
>> jumbronee that wanted to get "good pay in IT" started quitting there
>> job at 7/11 and getting their paper CNE. Now most companies go CNE?
>> HAHAHAHAHAHA! So! There REALLY needs to be some sort of rule that says
>
>> you have to have X amount of experience, documented, before you can
>> take the test. Just like the CISSP test. No offense to those who have
>> quit 7/11, started at the bottom and worked their way up. I started at
>
>> help desk and worked my way up also.
>>
> > Regards,
>> Steve
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
>> Of Jason Graun
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 7:38 AM
>> To: 'Scott Sattler'; security@groupstudy.com
>> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
>> Subject: RE: all September seats are gone
>>
>>
>> I somewhat agree with the financial statement you made, however I do
>> know of guys getting $150k offers still, those are not as often but
>> they do still exist. Also what do you consider low pay for a CCIE?
>> Is 100k-110k acceptable? I do see those job posting you are referring
>
>> to where they want a MCSE and a CCIE for 60k-70k or maybe 80k and that
>
>> is just insane. If people are taking those jobs it is mainly because
>> they have no real world experience and have just been in labs all the
>> time, which is what cheapens it for the rest of us and the employers
>> not understand what they want, they want a server/network in one, that
>
>> is ok but not going to be a CCIE. I know guys that have had little to
>
>> no experience but went to Cyscoexpert or IPexpert, etc... And passed
>> because the instructors understand what is going on and then relay
>> that to the student. But that student doesn't understand the
>> fundamentals of Operating Systems, Digital Communication, etc... They
>> can type some router stuff and that is it, they cannot apply the
>> concepts. I am speaking from experience here and not out of my ass; I
>> have dealt with a consultant, who was a CCIE that did not know what
>> proxy arp was, a 101 level concept, and had no idea how to run a
>> project or meet timelines and not to mention he had trouble
>> understanding routing scenarios I would consider remedial for a CCIE.
>
>> He never learned the basics of network communication; he just kept
>> doing labs and never had real world experience. I came from a desktop
>> support role into server/application support and then into network, it
>
>> was business Darwinism, only the strong shall survive. Most of the
>> really good network guys I have meet, CCIE or not, have made a similar
>
>> progression. I know guys that have told me they are getting there
>> CCIE so then can get a job in IT?! Never mind that whole experience
>> thing and understanding what they are doing they assume that employers
>
>> are going to look at them and say "wow a CCIE he must be worth 150k
>> and know everything" which is not true. People will get paid well if
>> they are willing to step up to the plate, take on some responsibility,
>
>> use good judgment and think it through. Check out the salary survey
>> on www.tcpmag.com for more info on pay rates.
>>
>> Jason
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
>> Of Scott Sattler
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 5:25 AM
>> To: security@groupstudy.com
>> Subject: Re: all september seats are gone
>>
>> All I know is that the financial benefit for obtaining a CCIE are
>> gone. MCSE's and CISSP's make the same amount of money now. The jobs
>> req's are CCNP or CCIE, many employers cannot distinguish the
> > difference. I know hiring CCIE's went from impossibly expensive to
>> dime a dozen. So what does that say for the certification? well, there
>
>> are alot more CCIE's it appears and a lot less demand for highly
>> certified network engineers. I have noticed lately a difference of
>> knowledge with a CCIE 1x,xxx in a meeting versus someone with one of
>> 5,xxx, That 1x,xxx has VERY specific knowledge, like they went to boot
>
>> camp for 2 weeks and when discussing anything beyond the core of
>> knowledge for CCIE certification they are lost. Would that qualify as
>> "paper" CCIE? (and it has nothing to do with years of experience
>> either) I wouldn't blame cisco for this, I would blame the boot
>> campers and exam crammers.
>>
>> Scott,
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Matt Hill" <Matt.Hill@aapt.com.au>
>> To: <security@groupstudy.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 12:32 AM
>> Subject: RE: all september seats are gone
>>
>>
>> > I disagree Brad.
>> >
>> > A CCIE is still a CCIE and should be recognised as such. One thing
> > > that has made the CCIE certification what it is today is its ability
>
>> > to be flexible according to what the market requires.
>> >
>> > I daresay that CCIE 1026 (whoever it may be, respect to the
>> > individual
>>
>> > concerned), who did the original 2-day exam 10 years ago would have
>> > done just as much work as someone doing the exam sometime late this
>> > year.
>> >
>> > I don't think that employer, or anyone else should belittle or
>> > prefer
>> > a CCIE just because the date is more favourable. Except for the
>fact
>> > that CCIE 1026 would invariably have 10 more years experience than
>> > CCIE 12xxx would (no disrespect to 12xxx either).
>> >
>> > I think we can also extrapolate something similar to refer to CCIEs
>> > who are certified in retired streams such as ISP Dial, Design & WAN
>> > Switching. These people are still CCIEs.
>> >
>> > Anyway, thanks for reading my rant.
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Matt
>> >
>> > --
>> > Matt Hill
>> > Network Engineering
>> > Alcatel Australia Pty Ltd
>> > 180-188 Burnley St
>> > Richmond, Vic
>> > 3121
>> >
>> > v: +61 3 8687 5739
>> > f: +61 3 8414 3115
>> > e: matt.hill@aapt.com.au
>> > u: http://www.alcatel.com.au
>> > m: ask and you may receive
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
>
>> > Of Brad Spencer
>> > Sent: Wednesday, 14 July 2004 1:58 PM
>> > To: security@groupstudy.com
>> > Subject: RE: all september seats are gone
>> >
>> > I wouldn't call a pre-October CCIE Security certification a 'paper
>> > CCIE' but I would call it a legacy CCIE. I hope some in the industry
>
>> > will recognize
>> > the difference between a pre-October and post-October CCIE Security
>> > certification. No offence intended to the R/S guys grabbing up
>> > pre-October slots. Well maybe a little. :)
>> > Brad
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
>
>> > Of Jimmy Zhang
>> > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 5:48 PM
>> > To: security@groupstudy.com
>> > Subject: all september seats are gone
>> >
>> > Just found that almost all September seats are gone in SJ. (Early
>> > September still has a few seats). October 1 is coming ...
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ---
>> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
>> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>> > Version: 6.0.719 / Virus Database: 475 - Release Date: 7/12/2004
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > --
>> > ----
>> ----
>> > This communication, including any attachments, is confidential. If
>> > you are not the intended recipient, you should not read it - please
>
>> > contact me immediately, destroy it, and do not copy or use any part
>of
>>
>> > this communication or disclose anything about it.
>> >
>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > --
>> > ----
>> ----
>
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