From: Scott Morris (swm@emanon.com)
Date: Wed Jul 14 2004 - 14:55:15 GMT-3
And have you ever really asked your doctor? :)
But regardless, it's also what they have done afterwards... It's a lifelong
journey not a one-stop thing.
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Brian Dennis
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 1:28 PM
To: Steve Smith; swm@emanon.com; jgraun@comcast.net; Scott Sattler;
security@groupstudy.com
Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: RE: all September seats are gone
Not me doctor? ;-)
Brian Dennis, CCIE #2210 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security)
bdennis@internetworkexpert.com Internetwork Expert, Inc.
http://www.InternetworkExpert.com
Toll Free: 877-224-8987
Direct: 775-745-6404 (Outside the US and Canada)
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Steve Smith
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 10:27 AM
To: swm@emanon.com; jgraun@comcast.net; Scott Sattler;
security@groupstudy.com
Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: RE: all September seats are gone
Hey Scott that reminds me of that joke: What do you call a doctor that
graduated last in his class......doctor!
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Morris [mailto:swm@emanon.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 11:48 AM
To: Steve Smith; jgraun@comcast.net; 'Scott Sattler';
security@groupstudy.com
Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: RE: all September seats are gone
That's a bit further than logic dictates guys. Besides, if you have
passed and you don't feel it's of value, you can always relegate the
title by not recertifying within two years like some others have done...
Or, do something to make sure you separate yourself from the "assumed
pack".
MCSEs work the same way. If working on Microsoft networks is your life
(and there's nothing wrong with that), then make sure that people don't
view you as a paper MCSE.
Having done the CNE and the MCSE paths myself, at the point in time when
I did them, they were important and I was pretty damned good at it.
Just outgrew it. If you are concerned though about what the CCIE will
turn into, do something about it!
Some doctors are much better than others. Do we decide that medical
school or the board exams are worthless? No, it's called economics or
Social Darwinism... The fit will survive. Be fit. :)
Scott Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713,
CISSP, JNCIP, et al. IPExpert CCIE Program Manager IPExpert Sr.
Technical Instructor swm@emanon.com/smorris@ipexpert.net
http://www.ipexpert.net
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Steve Smith
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 11:24 AM
To: jgraun@comcast.net; Scott Sattler; security@groupstudy.com
Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: RE: all September seats are gone
LOL!!! I hear ya!
-----Original Message-----
From: jgraun@comcast.net [mailto:jgraun@comcast.net]
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 10:21 AM
To: Steve Smith; Scott Sattler; security@groupstudy.com
Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: RE: all September seats are gone
Thanks for the support Steve! MCSE now stands for Must Call Someone
Else when I did it, it still had some value. I am concerned CCIE will
be Cisco Certifies Idiots Everyday.
Jason
> I agree with you Jason. I have always had a HUGE problem with people
> saying "I am working on my CCNP/MCSE/CNE so I can get a job in IT". I
> worked for a guy that at raise time would always say why should I pay
> you X amount a year more when I can get a college grad who just passed
> his MCSE and will do the job for 15K less a year. I would just say
> well when the network stops because his server is BSOD I wonder who
> will get it back up the quickest mr.paper MCSE or Mr. Been doing
> Microsoft installs since 1993? As you know the CNE was a huge cert
> 10-12 years ago. If you had it you where the man in OS. Then every
> jumbronee that wanted to get "good pay in IT" started quitting there
> job at 7/11 and getting their paper CNE. Now most companies go CNE?
> HAHAHAHAHAHA! So! There REALLY needs to be some sort of rule that says
> you have to have X amount of experience, documented, before you can
> take the test. Just like the CISSP test. No offense to those who have
> quit 7/11, started at the bottom and worked their way up. I started at
> help desk and worked my way up also.
>
> Regards,
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> Of Jason Graun
> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 7:38 AM
> To: 'Scott Sattler'; security@groupstudy.com
> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: all September seats are gone
>
>
> I somewhat agree with the financial statement you made, however I do
> know of guys getting $150k offers still, those are not as often but
> they do still exist. Also what do you consider low pay for a CCIE?
> Is 100k-110k acceptable? I do see those job posting you are referring
> to where they want a MCSE and a CCIE for 60k-70k or maybe 80k and that
> is just insane. If people are taking those jobs it is mainly because
> they have no real world experience and have just been in labs all the
> time, which is what cheapens it for the rest of us and the employers
> not understand what they want, they want a server/network in one, that
> is ok but not going to be a CCIE. I know guys that have had little to
> no experience but went to Cyscoexpert or IPexpert, etc... And passed
> because the instructors understand what is going on and then relay
> that to the student. But that student doesn't understand the
> fundamentals of Operating Systems, Digital Communication, etc... They
> can type some router stuff and that is it, they cannot apply the
> concepts. I am speaking from experience here and not out of my ass; I
> have dealt with a consultant, who was a CCIE that did not know what
> proxy arp was, a 101 level concept, and had no idea how to run a
> project or meet timelines and not to mention he had trouble
> understanding routing scenarios I would consider remedial for a CCIE.
> He never learned the basics of network communication; he just kept
> doing labs and never had real world experience. I came from a desktop
> support role into server/application support and then into network, it
> was business Darwinism, only the strong shall survive. Most of the
> really good network guys I have meet, CCIE or not, have made a similar
> progression. I know guys that have told me they are getting there
> CCIE so then can get a job in IT?! Never mind that whole experience
> thing and understanding what they are doing they assume that employers
> are going to look at them and say "wow a CCIE he must be worth 150k
> and know everything" which is not true. People will get paid well if
> they are willing to step up to the plate, take on some responsibility,
> use good judgment and think it through. Check out the salary survey
> on www.tcpmag.com for more info on pay rates.
>
> Jason
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> Of Scott Sattler
> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 5:25 AM
> To: security@groupstudy.com
> Subject: Re: all september seats are gone
>
> All I know is that the financial benefit for obtaining a CCIE are
> gone. MCSE's and CISSP's make the same amount of money now. The jobs
> req's are CCNP or CCIE, many employers cannot distinguish the
> difference. I know hiring CCIE's went from impossibly expensive to
> dime a dozen. So what does that say for the certification? well, there
> are alot more CCIE's it appears and a lot less demand for highly
> certified network engineers. I have noticed lately a difference of
> knowledge with a CCIE 1x,xxx in a meeting versus someone with one of
> 5,xxx, That 1x,xxx has VERY specific knowledge, like they went to boot
> camp for 2 weeks and when discussing anything beyond the core of
> knowledge for CCIE certification they are lost. Would that qualify as
> "paper" CCIE? (and it has nothing to do with years of experience
> either) I wouldn't blame cisco for this, I would blame the boot
> campers and exam crammers.
>
> Scott,
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Matt Hill" <Matt.Hill@aapt.com.au>
> To: <security@groupstudy.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 12:32 AM
> Subject: RE: all september seats are gone
>
>
> > I disagree Brad.
> >
> > A CCIE is still a CCIE and should be recognised as such. One thing
> > that has made the CCIE certification what it is today is its ability
> > to be flexible according to what the market requires.
> >
> > I daresay that CCIE 1026 (whoever it may be, respect to the
> > individual
>
> > concerned), who did the original 2-day exam 10 years ago would have
> > done just as much work as someone doing the exam sometime late this
> > year.
> >
> > I don't think that employer, or anyone else should belittle or
> > prefer
> > a CCIE just because the date is more favourable. Except for the
fact
> > that CCIE 1026 would invariably have 10 more years experience than
> > CCIE 12xxx would (no disrespect to 12xxx either).
> >
> > I think we can also extrapolate something similar to refer to CCIEs
> > who are certified in retired streams such as ISP Dial, Design & WAN
> > Switching. These people are still CCIEs.
> >
> > Anyway, thanks for reading my rant.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Matt
> >
> > --
> > Matt Hill
> > Network Engineering
> > Alcatel Australia Pty Ltd
> > 180-188 Burnley St
> > Richmond, Vic
> > 3121
> >
> > v: +61 3 8687 5739
> > f: +61 3 8414 3115
> > e: matt.hill@aapt.com.au
> > u: http://www.alcatel.com.au
> > m: ask and you may receive
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> > Of Brad Spencer
> > Sent: Wednesday, 14 July 2004 1:58 PM
> > To: security@groupstudy.com
> > Subject: RE: all september seats are gone
> >
> > I wouldn't call a pre-October CCIE Security certification a 'paper
> > CCIE' but I would call it a legacy CCIE. I hope some in the industry
> > will recognize
> > the difference between a pre-October and post-October CCIE Security
> > certification. No offence intended to the R/S guys grabbing up
> > pre-October slots. Well maybe a little. :)
> > Brad
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> > Of Jimmy Zhang
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 5:48 PM
> > To: security@groupstudy.com
> > Subject: all september seats are gone
> >
> > Just found that almost all September seats are gone in SJ. (Early
> > September still has a few seats). October 1 is coming ...
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.719 / Virus Database: 475 - Release Date: 7/12/2004
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> > ----
> ----
> > This communication, including any attachments, is confidential. If
> > you are not the intended recipient, you should not read it - please
> > contact me immediately, destroy it, and do not copy or use any part
of
>
> > this communication or disclose anything about it.
> >
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