From: Scott Morris (swm@emanon.com)
Date: Wed Jul 14 2004 - 14:03:55 GMT-3
Heheheheh... I'm hardly one to complain about people being long-winded!
(grin)
As for the process, there is supposed to be a committee within the CCIE
group that both creates and reviews the exams and weeds things out. I don't
know the specifics of it, and likely because Cisco doesn't want everyone
involved in their processes to that degree, but there is something! :)
As for the "correct" answers, that's a huge misnomer and myth people have.
Yes, there are scripts, but it's not like they look in your config for some
specific thing and only that specific thing unless that's what was called
for. Scripts are designed to help the proctors grade.
For example, if I simply tell you do not let 10.0.0.0/8 appear in R1's
routing table. No other requirements, so I don't care how you do it, then I
will look at the result. 'sh ip ro' on R1 and if 10.0.0.0/8 is in there,
then something is wrong. But the script won't look only for a
distribute-list in on R1, or offset-list, or whatever other method unless
you are told to do or not to do it in some fashion...
So the other important part to remember, and the hardest part, is the
objectivity of the grading. The no partial credit rule! So if one thing is
messed up in a point section (typically caused by careless reading or a
typo, which of course is purely because of stress!) will cause you to lose
point you may have thought you had. I liken this to my Service Provider
exam... I actually received 0% in my multicast section. I'll be damned if
my multicast didn't work! But going through in my head what was asked on
the exam (of course not having it in front of me still), I saw areas where I
could have misread things and therefore did something that I was asked not
to do. So, it sucks... But... In order to not take a week to grade every
single exam where the proctors say "oh, he was a bright guy, I know he
really meant to put this command in", these bars must be set.
But like I said, since you answered both yes and no to the fair test
question... If you do believe it was at a level it shouldn't have been, or
wording was confusing or something like that, then most certainly write to
them and let them know that (in a politically correct fashion!). Otherwise,
no harm no foul.
But on the flip side, you have a study path now, and perhaps had your brain
expanded in different directions so next time will be all the much easier!
One very important note to remember is perspective... Through the years,
not only through my own exams, but in hearing others talk... I hear of
exams that are REALLY hard and evil and all that. Typically this is when
people don't pass. I hear about exams that are simple, or straightforward,
or too easy. These are when people pass. All in all, there isn't much
variation in the exams themselves. :) Sooooo.... Must be someplace else!
Not to say that mistakes aren't made though.
No go back and study! (grin) but it at least seems like you are enjoying
the journey and that is an important part too! Despite nobody knowing what
a CCIE is where you're looking, you are making yourself better and I presume
that you have some job in mind as the target here... So good luck in that
pursuit!
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Deleonardo [mailto:JoeDeleonardo@cox.net]
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 11:50 AM
To: swm@emanon.com; 'Fernando Rodriguez'; ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: RE: Internetwork Experts CCIE Routing & Switching Lab Workbook
Do I think it was an unfair test? Yes and No. No - there's nothing on the
test that I hadn't had exposure to in the past, either in labs or in real
life. But they really did seem to raise the bar all of a sudden. The
requirements really required a much deeper knowledge. That's not a complaint
or a bad thing or the unfair part. I think it's something that you have to
accept when you start this process. You will probably fail at least once.
Most CCIE candidates take more then one attempt to pass. I know guys that
have attempted the lab ranging between 7-13 times. I have no less respect
for them because it's taking them more attempts then average. These are
bright guys that I'd work with any day. Part of this is luck too, you have
to admit, you can just have a bad day. You can be nervous. Heck the very
first time I took the lab, I was so nervous I had tunnel vision and couldn't
even remember the RFC1918 addresses. That's pretty bad. The lab you get
might just; by luck, be on the topics that you really focused on. Like you
said my next lab will have a different focus again. That's fine and good
thing, because I've noticed that after each lab attempt I've grown more
having taken in Cisco's problems and tried to figure out what they wanted.
That last email was frustration and fatigue. But in a few days after going
over the brain dump and maybe seeing deeper into what I missed or had
problems with. I'll be that much stronger next. Then they won't be able to
stump me on that area next time. Let's not forget about the dumb mistakes we
all make from time to time. If it were easy it wouldn't be worth having.
Right? Like you said at one point Scott, "what do they call a guy when he
finished medical school?" They still call him a doctor. I guess it was
probably a shock, because with all the labs I took yesterday being #5, I got
the Security on #3. You sort of get a sense of where the bar is... so to
speak. You probably know what I mean. You can look at a topic while studying
and you can almost formulate test questions in your head.
So it's not a bad thing if they raise the bar. I'm all for it. It will make
having it more worth all the effort. Because you know after you spend all
this time and money... and my God I have spent a lot of money. I want it to
mean something. I'm pursuing the second one and I'm glad I am because I've
learned a ton more from after I passed the first one. I feel like a
different engineer, with an entirely different perspective and when I
finally pass this, I'll even be more knowledgable. Which is what I really
want out of this. Besides I was kind of surprised when looking for my last
job after having passed the CCIE Security how many people really didn't know
what the CCIE was. So unless there is an engineer that made the request for
a CCIE to fill a job a lot of people seemed to have not even realize how
valuable you are having earned the CCIE.
I do wonder what the process is for giving a lab to candidates. Do they come
together as a team and put their questions into a bank and randomly draw
them out. I wonder if any of the proctors actually go through the lab with
out any previous knowledge of the content. That would be the best thing, so
they could get a better idea of what a person's perceptions where of the
requirements.
I ask this because I wonder how they determine their correct answer. Every
security topic on this lab yesterday I had on the Security lab in one form
or another - it was very comfortable material for me. I tested my
configurations, yet on my score report I apparently only got 25%. That
really through me for a loop. I got my score report last night at 11:25PM
PST, finishing the test at 5:05PM PST. Did they really have time to look at
my lab and maybe wonder why I did something a certain way? They do tighten
down the path you must take to configure, but most of the time there's
always wiggle room. To fail because you wiggle one way or the other is not
right... and that's what I think is not fair about the lab. They must have
graded via script. How fair is that?
How many of us would like to be able to comment on the lab while there?
Wouldn't it be great to cut us off from the routers at a certain time and
allow us to comment on questions. Because we can all write to Cisco and tell
them what we think, but with out the actual questions as a point of
reference. We might be remembering a requirement wrong. We might not be able
to get our logic across to them not being able to draw on specifcs with in
the problem. At this point I have a brain dump I did yes, but it's just that
a brain dump. A brain dump lacks those critical words that all CCIE lab
questions seem to hinge on.
I will say that me and a couple of other candidates gave Tom feedback after
the lab about how hard we thought it was. Tom did seem bothered by that. I
don't think they want to make it impossible. I think they really want you to
pass. He said they'd be looking at the lab and may adjust it in the future.
So this new bar, may not be there to stay. I don't mind it being there, I'd
just like to know just how much harder I need to study. Now I know and I
think that because of that - I'll have a better opportunity next time. If
the do adjust it down, then great all my extra hard work this month should
pay off. If not August then there's always September. :)
I'm really not complaining all that much. It's a great program. It's well
worth the time and money. It's just my opinion - nothing more. Just sharing
my experience in hopes it will help another.
CCID (diety huh?) :) Well I guess the reason why I mentioned the next step
up for a CCIE can also come from another one of your replys. There are some
CCIEs that just know more then others. Maybe a better analogy might be
between a doctor and a surgeon. Both are doctors, but you'd really want a
surgeon to perform an operation on you.
And again you're right, that's why you get more then one of these and I
guess that's why Cisco has multiple versions.
Who knows. All I know is I apparently need to learn more still before I can
get my second. So I need to stop with this long winded email and do
something more productive. :)
Have a good one!
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Morris [mailto:swm@emanon.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 6:28 AM
To: 'Joe Deleonardo'; 'Fernando Rodriguez'; Joe_Deleonardo@hotmail.com;
ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: RE: Internetwork Experts CCIE Routing & Switching Lab Workbook
Frustration is certainly something that can build up while prepping for this
exam. Whether from some of the seemingly inane requirements that practice
labs contain, or certainly the same thing when finally getting to the real
lab exam and, as you said, thinking about why anyone in their right mind
would ever design a network that way.
The answer lies a little deeper than that. One of my consulting rules is
that if you ever run across a network designed in the same haphazard fashion
as a CCIE lab scenario, go find whoever was responsible for it and smack
them soundly about their head....
That being said, the test is not about designing insane networks. The test
is about figuring out whether your capabilities are "expert-level" or not.
If you have ever done a lot of consulting, you will find that clients don't
always ask things in a straight-forward, logical, or even sane manner at
times.
But in order to make something happen per the requirements given (no matter
how bizzare) you must have an in-depth understanding of the technologies in
question and what impact they may have on one another. Concepts are not
always easy to test. And multiple concepts trying to be tested on one exam
does not make for a good network design!
Think about real-world networks though. Let's take frame-relay for many
locations in a hub and spoke arrangement. Most of us, given the choice,
will opt for something nice and easy like a myriad of P2P links. Perhaps
not (but why not you ask? Maybe other "requirements" make that a bad
choice)... If the CCIE lab had you configure P2P links with different /30's
on each one, what would that test of you? That you understand Frame Relay?
That you understand some of the nuances of OSPF?
Nope. So how do you gauge "expert-level" knowledge.
Now, on the flip side of things, since you mention many others were in shock
as well. If you believe it was an unfair exam (beyond the testing your
expert-level knowledge of technologies), then let Cisco know about it!!!
E-mail to ccie@cisco.com and let them know your complaints. Certainly do
this in a professional method and analyze what and why things were not a
fair test. Don't rely on someone at Cisco saying "Oh, too many people
failed the CCIE lab this month, we should make it easier."
If you got a "bad" exam, I'm sorry to hear about that. The process in place
within the CCIE group should have actually prevented this from happening.
But if they merely are highlighting different areas that we (collectively)
haven't thought about before, then perhaps it is an interesting adjustment
to make in our approach to studying.
The items on the exam should be able to be located on the DocCD regardless.
So were they not there? Or were there simply too many to have time to find?
I don't mean to sound callous or offensive about this, but wherein lies the
problem? The exam? Or elsewhere? (And no, I'm not getting into a
discussion of one vendor's material versus anothers)
Certainly your experience with this exam can give you additional items to
study. At least the "focus" areas. Although you will likely find your next
lab different in terms of focus as well!
Recertifying CCIE's in the lab? Now that would be an interesting idea. :)
Most CCIE's that I have worked with though do very well at keeping up with
technologies, mostly because of the projects they become involved with.
Perhaps not to the level of the lab for every topic, but then again they
know much more about other topics than many do! :)
A level above CCIE? Another intersting idea, but if you are called an
'expert' for the CCIE, what do you call the next level? Cisco Certified
Internetwork Deity? :) And here I thought that is why you were going for
more than one CCIE!
Anyway, sorry to hear your disappointment with the lab this time around as
well as the outcome. But I would really suggest that you share your
constructive criticism (because you don't have to worry about the NDA thing
when talking to ccie@cisco.com) with the folks who can really take it to
heart. You may or may not get a reply, but you can always hope that it will
make someone look at the lab and/or the testing statistics and rethink some
things if it truly was an unfair exam.
Making tests at this level isn't easy! Taking them certainly isn't either!
:)
Scott Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713, CISSP,
JNCIP, et al.
IPExpert CCIE Program Manager
IPExpert Sr. Technical Instructor
swm@emanon.com/smorris@ipexpert.net
http://www.ipexpert.net
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of Joe
Deleonardo
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 6:06 AM
To: 'Fernando Rodriguez'; Joe_Deleonardo@hotmail.com; ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: RE: Internetwork Experts CCIE Routing & Switching Lab Workbook
Oh I hope I didn't offend you when I said that. I understood what you meant.
I was just trying to say everyone's different and an individual - what I
require to do to pass may be twice what you require to pass.
I went through the Hello Computers lab book all of them. I went to the
HelloComputers bootcamp, then failed the lab last month.
I bought Internetwork Experts book, I went through all 20 labs, understood
everything. I do think it's a great book.
Today (er - yesterday - haven't gone to sleep yet) I took the lab and all I
can say was that this was most difficult test I've ever taken in my life.
The only word to describe it is, vicious. I've just never seen so many
obscure topics, with so many restrictions as to how you can and can't do
things, with very specific out come requirements. I got through the lab, but
didn't have enough time to go back over the whole thing to look for errors
or to go back to what I had skipped.
It's not like I didn't prepare. My notes only had one thing in them that I
had forgotten a detail about. One little detail out of the whole lab is not
bad. What was so different was the level of complexity and depth. This lab
made my last R&S lab look like an absolute piece of cake. I wasn't alone -
other candidates on the way out were all in shock. It was a brand new lab -
you could tell because all the plastic was shiny and the paper was printer
fresh. Maybe they'll make adjustments to it when they see just how hard
people see this lab to be. I know Cisco wants to make this difficult. Heck,
I want Cisco to make this difficult. But if they make it impossible then who
will want to even risk their money.
I really feel that if Cisco wanted to make another level up beyond the CCIE
this test today would have been a good candidate. You know what they could
do is have CCIE's that recertify on paper only and CCIE's that recertify in
the lab.... maybe at a reduced cost to the CCIE. We all know this technology
changes... what? Every 6-12 months there's a new major IOS revision. I doubt
all CCIEs really keep up with it.
All I wish is that the lab would be more real world. I think that would make
the CCIE much more valuable. Some of the requirements I read today made me
think right away, "why would you ever want to do that!" There's just so
many ways to do things and just because I know every trivial pursuit type
command/method doesn't necessarily make me a better engineer.
I feel at a loss at this point. My only idea at this point is to do what
some body else posted on this board - read through all of the Cisco
Documentation and try to learn the important details that I'm missing.
OK well, blah, blah, blah, just blowing off steam and frustration.
Good luck to you!
Joe
CCIE Security 12391
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Fernando Rodriguez
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 2:38 AM
To: Joe_Deleonardo@hotmail.com; ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: RE: Internetwork Experts CCIE Routing & Switching Lab Workbook
Hi Joe and everyone,
I can tell you this is not a shortcut. I have been studying a lot during a
long while, attended bootcamp, reviewed everything and went for the
lab...and failed.
What I4m looking for is a book that provides me with similar challenges to
the lab and give me a clear explanation on why things are done in a certain
way and not other. I have some time to study at work and have also a
work-lab to "play" with...but no VoIP nor ATM but I can always mess around
with customers routers and, should something go wrong, blame on Cisco IOS
new features being developed hehehe
So no, I am not looking a shortcut...I am just trying to easy the pain of
this long path.
...and yes, you are right...I can not afford "a proctor" but if all of us
put a small amount of..."peanuts" we could get our "Groupstudy
proctor"...just a naughty thought hehehe
Regards,
Fernando
--- Joe Deleonardo <JoeDeleonardo@cox.net> escribis: > That really all
depends on you. Everyone learns at
> different speeds. You
> also have to take into account your real life experience, etc.
>
> Internetwork Experts book is great, but it's not a short cut. No book
> out there is a short cut. Don't kid yourself, there is absolutely no
> way to short cut the CCIE... well short of paying a proctor more money
> then any of us probably have to just pass you. But if you had that
> much money why bother with the CCIE? ;)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com
> [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of Fernando Rodriguez
> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 12:30 AM
> To: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> Subject: Internetwork Experts CCIE Routing & Switching Lab Workbook
>
> Hi all again,
> I4m about to purchase the aforementioned book. I was thinking about
> how long I would need in normal circunstances to have a good look at
> it and practice enough in order to finish it and book my lab.
> Thanks as always,
>
> Fernando
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________
> Yahoo! lanza su nueva tecnologma de bzsquedas ?te atreves a comparar?
> http://busquedas.yahoo.es
>
>
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Sun Aug 01 2004 - 10:11:55 GMT-3