From: christopher snow (cbsnow31@yahoo.com)
Date: Wed Jul 14 2004 - 12:47:22 GMT-3
Great post Scott! I treat the CCIE like a treated SF and Ranger school in the military. It's a badge to show the commitment I have to my profession, and it shows employers and coworkers that I set high standards for myself. If it happens to get me promoted faster or open doors for higher paying jobs then great; if not, thats ok as well. I am studying for the Security track regardless if its post, pre, expired or any other title that you want to call it. Certification is about one's pride in themselves and the commitment to achieve excellence in a given profession. No more, no less.....
Chris Snow
#13083
Scott Morris <swm@emanon.com> wrote:
And likewise, I've met CCIE's with years and years of experience who are
still idiots. Like you said, Darwinism, but it takes all kinds to make the
world go 'round...
While it is much better to have a complete understanding of the network from
the ground-up, how many people in this type of role truly understand
structured cabling? Cabling lately has become a commodity, as we replace
things without thinking it through. But does it make someone more or less
valuable ($$$) because they don't know ethernet pinouts versus token ring
pinouts? Or 568A versus 568B?
As for proxy arp, while a basic concept, may be something not dealt with in
a live environment, and "filed away" in the back of the brain.... There are
times that I have to trigger something to remember the 'basics' because it's
not something I see or deal with every day. Would that make me not as
valuable? Perhaps if the particular job revolved around technologies and
concepts at that level, yes it would. To something else, no it would not.
Looking at salary averages only tells a minor piece of the puzzle. The more
interesting thing though is to look at history of these surveys. The CCIE
"average" salary has decreased in the last 5 years. Is this because more
and more inexperienced people come into the market? Perhaps. Does that
mean that all jobs reduce the money? That's a market correction and perhaps
better for an economist to answer. Perhaps we were all overpaid previously.
(just a musing, let's not center on this) Economics are a tumultuous and
strange ride, and the answers may have nothing to do with what you are
looking at.
Yes, CISSPs can make really good money as well. For MCSE's, my guess is
either the people are lying about their salary (another problem with
volunteer surveys) or there are some large network MCSE's out there where
the fact they have one certification is no indication to their level of
expertise. Many vertical markets don't strive for the certifications
because (in their opinion) they offer no measurement of real-world (again,
their individual perspective) requirements. Which may very well be true,
but still an economists' realm. Would I trust a CISSP to actually implement
security throughout a network? Probably not. Would I trust a CCIE to
design all of the security policies for an enterprise? Probably not.
Experience may correct that, everyone learns someplace.
So that doesn't signal the loss of a financial benefit to any particular
certification. If nothing else, coupled with the tight job market still
today, it should signal the need for diversity. Don't put your eggs all in
one basket. If you individually are valuable enough, if you value yourself
enough, you will find a job that pays appropriately. If you don't value
yourself enough, or perhaps are under financial durress, then you may settle
for something lower. Things happen.
I know of CCIEs working other jobs (one at a gas station) simply due to the
economics of the area where he lives and other personal financial things.
He's got great expeirence and is a really bright guy. But sometimes, as
Darwin may say, shit happens.
Everyone, however, should be more concerned with themselves and their
achievements than everyone else's. The salary surveys are unfair for many
reasons as a gauge for your own measurement or for management guidelines for
pay. Other than the concept of whether people are lying or not, let's look
at other things... If I were to participate in the survey, not only would
it be just something added in, but also by region. Now, I can tell you that
what I make is by no means an indication of what a CCIE having a job in
Lexington, KY would make. Although I live here, which is where my salary as
a statistic would be placed, my "work" occurs elsewhere.
So keep everything in perspective when loooking at these things, but most of
all focus on your own individual progress and achievements. If you don't
like whatever situation you are in, figure out how to change it.
Scott Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713, CISSP,
JNCIP, et al.
IPExpert CCIE Program Manager
IPExpert Sr. Technical Instructor
swm@emanon.com/smorris@ipexpert.net
http://www.ipexpert.net
PS. I don't train people 'just' to pass the exam. Although I can't account
for anyone's experience level, I can certainly make every effort to tweak
their understanding and capability level along the way! The exam is simply
a measuring stick of that. We are all a culmination of our experiences.
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Jason Graun
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 8:38 AM
To: 'Scott Sattler'; security@groupstudy.com
Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: RE: all September seats are gone
I somewhat agree with the financial statement you made, however I do know of
guys getting $150k offers still, those are not as often but they do still
exist. Also what do you consider low pay for a CCIE? Is 100k-110k
acceptable? I do see those job posting you are referring to where they want
a MCSE and a CCIE for 60k-70k or maybe 80k and that is just insane. If
people are taking those jobs it is mainly because they have no real world
experience and have just been in labs all the time, which is what cheapens
it for the rest of us and the employers not understand what they want, they
want a server/network in one, that is ok but not going to be a CCIE. I know
guys that have had little to no experience but went to Cyscoexpert or
IPexpert, etc... And passed because the instructors understand what is going
on and then relay that to the student. But that student doesn't understand
the fundamentals of Operating Systems, Digital Communication, etc... They
can type some router stuff and that is it, they cannot apply the concepts.
I am speaking from experience here and not out of my ass; I have dealt with
a consultant, who was a CCIE that did not know what proxy arp was, a 101
level concept, and had no idea how to run a project or meet timelines and
not to mention he had trouble understanding routing scenarios I would
consider remedial for a CCIE. He never learned the basics of network
communication; he just kept doing labs and never had real world experience.
I came from a desktop support role into server/application support and then
into network, it was business Darwinism, only the strong shall survive.
Most of the really good network guys I have meet, CCIE or not, have made a
similar progression. I know guys that have told me they are getting there
CCIE so then can get a job in IT?! Never mind that whole experience thing
and understanding what they are doing they assume that employers are going
to look at them and say "wow a CCIE he must be worth 150k and know
everything" which is not true. People will get paid well if they are
willing to step up to the plate, take on some responsibility, use good
judgment and think it through. Check out the salary survey on
www.tcpmag.com for more info on pay rates.
Jason
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Scott Sattler
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 5:25 AM
To: security@groupstudy.com
Subject: Re: all september seats are gone
All I know is that the financial benefit for obtaining a CCIE are gone.
MCSE's and CISSP's make the same amount of money now. The jobs req's are
CCNP or CCIE, many employers cannot distinguish the difference. I know
hiring CCIE's went from impossibly expensive to dime a dozen. So what does
that say for the certification? well, there are alot more CCIE's it appears
and a lot less demand for highly certified network engineers. I have noticed
lately a difference of knowledge with a CCIE 1x,xxx in a meeting versus
someone with one of 5,xxx, That 1x,xxx has VERY specific knowledge, like
they went to boot camp for 2 weeks and when discussing anything beyond the
core of knowledge for CCIE certification they are lost. Would that qualify
as "paper" CCIE? (and it has nothing to do with years of experience either)
I wouldn't blame cisco for this, I would blame the boot campers and exam
crammers.
Scott,
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Hill"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 12:32 AM
Subject: RE: all september seats are gone
> I disagree Brad.
>
> A CCIE is still a CCIE and should be recognised as such. One thing that
> has made the CCIE certification what it is today is its ability to be
> flexible according to what the market requires.
>
> I daresay that CCIE 1026 (whoever it may be, respect to the individual
> concerned), who did the original 2-day exam 10 years ago would have done
> just as much work as someone doing the exam sometime late this year.
>
> I don't think that employer, or anyone else should belittle or prefer a
> CCIE just because the date is more favourable. Except for the fact that
> CCIE 1026 would invariably have 10 more years experience than CCIE 12xxx
> would (no disrespect to 12xxx either).
>
> I think we can also extrapolate something similar to refer to CCIEs who
> are certified in retired streams such as ISP Dial, Design & WAN
> Switching. These people are still CCIEs.
>
> Anyway, thanks for reading my rant.
>
> Cheers,
> Matt
>
> --
> Matt Hill
> Network Engineering
> Alcatel Australia Pty Ltd
> 180-188 Burnley St
> Richmond, Vic
> 3121
>
> v: +61 3 8687 5739
> f: +61 3 8414 3115
> e: matt.hill@aapt.com.au
> u: http://www.alcatel.com.au
> m: ask and you may receive
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> Brad Spencer
> Sent: Wednesday, 14 July 2004 1:58 PM
> To: security@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: all september seats are gone
>
> I wouldn't call a pre-October CCIE Security certification a 'paper CCIE'
> but
> I would call it a legacy CCIE. I hope some in the industry will
> recognize
> the difference between a pre-October and post-October CCIE Security
> certification. No offence intended to the R/S guys grabbing up
> pre-October
> slots. Well maybe a little. :)
> Brad
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> Jimmy Zhang
> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 5:48 PM
> To: security@groupstudy.com
> Subject: all september seats are gone
>
> Just found that almost all September seats are gone in SJ. (Early
> September
> still has a few seats). October 1 is coming ...
>
>
>
> ---
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>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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