From: jgraun@comcast.net
Date: Wed Jul 14 2004 - 12:21:15 GMT-3
Thanks for the support Steve! MCSE now stands for Must Call Someone Else when I did it, it still had some value. I am concerned CCIE will be Cisco Certifies Idiots Everyday.
Jason
> I agree with you Jason. I have always had a HUGE problem with people
> saying "I am working on my CCNP/MCSE/CNE so I can get a job in IT". I
> worked for a guy that at raise time would always say why should I pay
> you X amount a year more when I can get a college grad who just passed
> his MCSE and will do the job for 15K less a year. I would just say well
> when the network stops because his server is BSOD I wonder who will get
> it back up the quickest mr.paper MCSE or Mr. Been doing Microsoft
> installs since 1993? As you know the CNE was a huge cert 10-12 years
> ago. If you had it you where the man in OS. Then every jumbronee that
> wanted to get "good pay in IT" started quitting there job at 7/11 and
> getting their paper CNE. Now most companies go CNE? HAHAHAHAHAHA! So!
> There REALLY needs to be some sort of rule that says you have to have X
> amount of experience, documented, before you can take the test. Just
> like the CISSP test. No offense to those who have quit 7/11, started at
> the bottom and worked their way up. I started at help desk and worked my
> way up also.
>
> Regards,
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> Jason Graun
> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 7:38 AM
> To: 'Scott Sattler'; security@groupstudy.com
> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: all September seats are gone
>
>
> I somewhat agree with the financial statement you made, however I do
> know of guys getting $150k offers still, those are not as often but they
> do still exist. Also what do you consider low pay for a CCIE? Is
> 100k-110k acceptable? I do see those job posting you are referring to
> where they want a MCSE and a CCIE for 60k-70k or maybe 80k and that is
> just insane. If people are taking those jobs it is mainly because they
> have no real world experience and have just been in labs all the time,
> which is what cheapens it for the rest of us and the employers not
> understand what they want, they want a server/network in one, that is ok
> but not going to be a CCIE. I know guys that have had little to no
> experience but went to Cyscoexpert or IPexpert, etc... And passed
> because the instructors understand what is going on and then relay that
> to the student. But that student doesn't understand the fundamentals of
> Operating Systems, Digital Communication, etc... They can type some
> router stuff and that is it, they cannot apply the concepts. I am
> speaking from experience here and not out of my ass; I have dealt with a
> consultant, who was a CCIE that did not know what proxy arp was, a 101
> level concept, and had no idea how to run a project or meet timelines
> and not to mention he had trouble understanding routing scenarios I
> would consider remedial for a CCIE. He never learned the basics of
> network communication; he just kept doing labs and never had real world
> experience. I came from a desktop support role into server/application
> support and then into network, it was business Darwinism, only the
> strong shall survive. Most of the really good network guys I have meet,
> CCIE or not, have made a similar progression. I know guys that have
> told me they are getting there CCIE so then can get a job in IT?! Never
> mind that whole experience thing and understanding what they are doing
> they assume that employers are going to look at them and say "wow a CCIE
> he must be worth 150k and know everything" which is not true. People
> will get paid well if they are willing to step up to the plate, take on
> some responsibility, use good judgment and think it through. Check out
> the salary survey on www.tcpmag.com for more info on pay rates.
>
> Jason
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> Scott Sattler
> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 5:25 AM
> To: security@groupstudy.com
> Subject: Re: all september seats are gone
>
> All I know is that the financial benefit for obtaining a CCIE are gone.
> MCSE's and CISSP's make the same amount of money now. The jobs req's are
> CCNP or CCIE, many employers cannot distinguish the difference. I know
> hiring CCIE's went from impossibly expensive to dime a dozen. So what
> does that say for the certification? well, there are alot more CCIE's it
> appears and a lot less demand for highly certified network engineers. I
> have noticed lately a difference of knowledge with a CCIE 1x,xxx in a
> meeting versus someone with one of 5,xxx, That 1x,xxx has VERY specific
> knowledge, like they went to boot camp for 2 weeks and when discussing
> anything beyond the core of knowledge for CCIE certification they are
> lost. Would that qualify as "paper" CCIE? (and it has nothing to do with
> years of experience either) I wouldn't blame cisco for this, I would
> blame the boot campers and exam crammers.
>
> Scott,
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Matt Hill" <Matt.Hill@aapt.com.au>
> To: <security@groupstudy.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 12:32 AM
> Subject: RE: all september seats are gone
>
>
> > I disagree Brad.
> >
> > A CCIE is still a CCIE and should be recognised as such. One thing
> > that has made the CCIE certification what it is today is its ability
> > to be flexible according to what the market requires.
> >
> > I daresay that CCIE 1026 (whoever it may be, respect to the individual
>
> > concerned), who did the original 2-day exam 10 years ago would have
> > done just as much work as someone doing the exam sometime late this
> > year.
> >
> > I don't think that employer, or anyone else should belittle or prefer
> > a CCIE just because the date is more favourable. Except for the fact
> > that CCIE 1026 would invariably have 10 more years experience than
> > CCIE 12xxx would (no disrespect to 12xxx either).
> >
> > I think we can also extrapolate something similar to refer to CCIEs
> > who are certified in retired streams such as ISP Dial, Design & WAN
> > Switching. These people are still CCIEs.
> >
> > Anyway, thanks for reading my rant.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Matt
> >
> > --
> > Matt Hill
> > Network Engineering
> > Alcatel Australia Pty Ltd
> > 180-188 Burnley St
> > Richmond, Vic
> > 3121
> >
> > v: +61 3 8687 5739
> > f: +61 3 8414 3115
> > e: matt.hill@aapt.com.au
> > u: http://www.alcatel.com.au
> > m: ask and you may receive
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> > Of Brad Spencer
> > Sent: Wednesday, 14 July 2004 1:58 PM
> > To: security@groupstudy.com
> > Subject: RE: all september seats are gone
> >
> > I wouldn't call a pre-October CCIE Security certification a 'paper
> > CCIE' but I would call it a legacy CCIE. I hope some in the industry
> > will recognize
> > the difference between a pre-October and post-October CCIE Security
> > certification. No offence intended to the R/S guys grabbing up
> > pre-October
> > slots. Well maybe a little. :)
> > Brad
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> > Of Jimmy Zhang
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 5:48 PM
> > To: security@groupstudy.com
> > Subject: all september seats are gone
> >
> > Just found that almost all September seats are gone in SJ. (Early
> > September still has a few seats). October 1 is coming ...
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
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> >
> >
> >
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