From: jgraun@comcast.net
Date: Wed Jul 14 2004 - 11:54:24 GMT-3
Scott you make some good points. I have met a CCIE in 4xxx that couldnt
Redistribute between two routing protocols properly, so there are idiots no matter what, that isnt something you do everyday but not knowing the basics of Ethernet
networks???!!! There is no excuse for that, that is like a Heart Surgeon not
knowing what a vein does.
> And likewise, I've met CCIE's with years and years of experience who are
> still idiots. Like you said, Darwinism, but it takes all kinds to make the
> world go 'round...
>
> While it is much better to have a complete understanding of the network from
> the ground-up, how many people in this type of role truly understand
> structured cabling? Cabling lately has become a commodity, as we replace
> things without thinking it through. But does it make someone more or less
> valuable ($$$) because they don't know ethernet pinouts versus token ring
> pinouts? Or 568A versus 568B?
>
> As for proxy arp, while a basic concept, may be something not dealt with in
> a live environment, and "filed away" in the back of the brain.... There are
> times that I have to trigger something to remember the 'basics' because it's
> not something I see or deal with every day. Would that make me not as
> valuable? Perhaps if the particular job revolved around technologies and
> concepts at that level, yes it would. To something else, no it would not.
>
> Looking at salary averages only tells a minor piece of the puzzle. The more
> interesting thing though is to look at history of these surveys. The CCIE
> "average" salary has decreased in the last 5 years. Is this because more
> and more inexperienced people come into the market? Perhaps. Does that
> mean that all jobs reduce the money? That's a market correction and perhaps
> better for an economist to answer. Perhaps we were all overpaid previously.
> (just a musing, let's not center on this) Economics are a tumultuous and
> strange ride, and the answers may have nothing to do with what you are
> looking at.
>
> Yes, CISSPs can make really good money as well. For MCSE's, my guess is
> either the people are lying about their salary (another problem with
> volunteer surveys) or there are some large network MCSE's out there where
> the fact they have one certification is no indication to their level of
> expertise. Many vertical markets don't strive for the certifications
> because (in their opinion) they offer no measurement of real-world (again,
> their individual perspective) requirements. Which may very well be true,
> but still an economists' realm. Would I trust a CISSP to actually implement
> security throughout a network? Probably not. Would I trust a CCIE to
> design all of the security policies for an enterprise? Probably not.
> Experience may correct that, everyone learns someplace.
>
> So that doesn't signal the loss of a financial benefit to any particular
> certification. If nothing else, coupled with the tight job market still
> today, it should signal the need for diversity. Don't put your eggs all in
> one basket. If you individually are valuable enough, if you value yourself
> enough, you will find a job that pays appropriately. If you don't value
> yourself enough, or perhaps are under financial durress, then you may settle
> for something lower. Things happen.
>
> I know of CCIEs working other jobs (one at a gas station) simply due to the
> economics of the area where he lives and other personal financial things.
> He's got great expeirence and is a really bright guy. But sometimes, as
> Darwin may say, shit happens.
>
> Everyone, however, should be more concerned with themselves and their
> achievements than everyone else's. The salary surveys are unfair for many
> reasons as a gauge for your own measurement or for management guidelines for
> pay. Other than the concept of whether people are lying or not, let's look
> at other things... If I were to participate in the survey, not only would
> it be just something added in, but also by region. Now, I can tell you that
> what I make is by no means an indication of what a CCIE having a job in
> Lexington, KY would make. Although I live here, which is where my salary as
> a statistic would be placed, my "work" occurs elsewhere.
>
> So keep everything in perspective when loooking at these things, but most of
> all focus on your own individual progress and achievements. If you don't
> like whatever situation you are in, figure out how to change it.
>
>
> Scott Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713, CISSP,
> JNCIP, et al.
> IPExpert CCIE Program Manager
> IPExpert Sr. Technical Instructor
> swm@emanon.com/smorris@ipexpert.net
> http://www.ipexpert.net
>
> PS. I don't train people 'just' to pass the exam. Although I can't account
> for anyone's experience level, I can certainly make every effort to tweak
> their understanding and capability level along the way! The exam is simply
> a measuring stick of that. We are all a culmination of our experiences.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> Jason Graun
> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 8:38 AM
> To: 'Scott Sattler'; security@groupstudy.com
> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: all September seats are gone
>
> I somewhat agree with the financial statement you made, however I do know of
> guys getting $150k offers still, those are not as often but they do still
> exist. Also what do you consider low pay for a CCIE? Is 100k-110k
> acceptable? I do see those job posting you are referring to where they want
> a MCSE and a CCIE for 60k-70k or maybe 80k and that is just insane. If
> people are taking those jobs it is mainly because they have no real world
> experience and have just been in labs all the time, which is what cheapens
> it for the rest of us and the employers not understand what they want, they
> want a server/network in one, that is ok but not going to be a CCIE. I know
> guys that have had little to no experience but went to Cyscoexpert or
> IPexpert, etc... And passed because the instructors understand what is going
> on and then relay that to the student. But that student doesn't understand
> the fundamentals of Operating Systems, Digital Communication, etc... They
> can type some router stuff and that is it, they cannot apply the concepts.
> I am speaking from experience here and not out of my ass; I have dealt with
> a consultant, who was a CCIE that did not know what proxy arp was, a 101
> level concept, and had no idea how to run a project or meet timelines and
> not to mention he had trouble understanding routing scenarios I would
> consider remedial for a CCIE. He never learned the basics of network
> communication; he just kept doing labs and never had real world experience.
> I came from a desktop support role into server/application support and then
> into network, it was business Darwinism, only the strong shall survive.
> Most of the really good network guys I have meet, CCIE or not, have made a
> similar progression. I know guys that have told me they are getting there
> CCIE so then can get a job in IT?! Never mind that whole experience thing
> and understanding what they are doing they assume that employers are going
> to look at them and say "wow a CCIE he must be worth 150k and know
> everything" which is not true. People will get paid well if they are
> willing to step up to the plate, take on some responsibility, use good
> judgment and think it through. Check out the salary survey on
> www.tcpmag.com for more info on pay rates.
>
> Jason
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> Scott Sattler
> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 5:25 AM
> To: security@groupstudy.com
> Subject: Re: all september seats are gone
>
> All I know is that the financial benefit for obtaining a CCIE are gone.
> MCSE's and CISSP's make the same amount of money now. The jobs req's are
> CCNP or CCIE, many employers cannot distinguish the difference. I know
> hiring CCIE's went from impossibly expensive to dime a dozen. So what does
> that say for the certification? well, there are alot more CCIE's it appears
> and a lot less demand for highly certified network engineers. I have noticed
> lately a difference of knowledge with a CCIE 1x,xxx in a meeting versus
> someone with one of 5,xxx, That 1x,xxx has VERY specific knowledge, like
> they went to boot camp for 2 weeks and when discussing anything beyond the
> core of knowledge for CCIE certification they are lost. Would that qualify
> as "paper" CCIE? (and it has nothing to do with years of experience either)
> I wouldn't blame cisco for this, I would blame the boot campers and exam
> crammers.
>
> Scott,
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Matt Hill" <Matt.Hill@aapt.com.au>
> To: <security@groupstudy.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 12:32 AM
> Subject: RE: all september seats are gone
>
>
> > I disagree Brad.
> >
> > A CCIE is still a CCIE and should be recognised as such. One thing that
> > has made the CCIE certification what it is today is its ability to be
> > flexible according to what the market requires.
> >
> > I daresay that CCIE 1026 (whoever it may be, respect to the individual
> > concerned), who did the original 2-day exam 10 years ago would have done
> > just as much work as someone doing the exam sometime late this year.
> >
> > I don't think that employer, or anyone else should belittle or prefer a
> > CCIE just because the date is more favourable. Except for the fact that
> > CCIE 1026 would invariably have 10 more years experience than CCIE 12xxx
> > would (no disrespect to 12xxx either).
> >
> > I think we can also extrapolate something similar to refer to CCIEs who
> > are certified in retired streams such as ISP Dial, Design & WAN
> > Switching. These people are still CCIEs.
> >
> > Anyway, thanks for reading my rant.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Matt
> >
> > --
> > Matt Hill
> > Network Engineering
> > Alcatel Australia Pty Ltd
> > 180-188 Burnley St
> > Richmond, Vic
> > 3121
> >
> > v: +61 3 8687 5739
> > f: +61 3 8414 3115
> > e: matt.hill@aapt.com.au
> > u: http://www.alcatel.com.au
> > m: ask and you may receive
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> > Brad Spencer
> > Sent: Wednesday, 14 July 2004 1:58 PM
> > To: security@groupstudy.com
> > Subject: RE: all september seats are gone
> >
> > I wouldn't call a pre-October CCIE Security certification a 'paper CCIE'
> > but
> > I would call it a legacy CCIE. I hope some in the industry will
> > recognize
> > the difference between a pre-October and post-October CCIE Security
> > certification. No offence intended to the R/S guys grabbing up
> > pre-October
> > slots. Well maybe a little. :)
> > Brad
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> > Jimmy Zhang
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 5:48 PM
> > To: security@groupstudy.com
> > Subject: all september seats are gone
> >
> > Just found that almost all September seats are gone in SJ. (Early
> > September
> > still has a few seats). October 1 is coming ...
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.719 / Virus Database: 475 - Release Date: 7/12/2004
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> > This communication, including any attachments, is confidential. If
> > you are not the intended recipient, you should not read it - please
> > contact me immediately, destroy it, and do not copy or use any part of
> > this communication or disclose anything about it.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
>
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