From: John Underhill (stepnwlf@magma.ca)
Date: Mon Jun 21 2004 - 16:02:11 GMT-3
You seem to be under the impression that I am motivated strictly by a
sense of self interest in this matter, but this is simply not the case. I
own a rack of routers, nothing fancy, but enough get me through. I don't use
practice labs, as for me, writing my own labs, and then researching the
solutions seems a more effective learning method. But most importantly, I
don't feel that in my particular situation, becoming a CCIE would have a
great deal of impact on my career, if anything, learning peoplesoft would
probably be a better choice. (..and truth be told, completing Halo in
legendary mode, is probably more important to me at this moment then adding
to a long laundry list of certifications, when I have found that being able
to demonstrate applied experience on a similar project is what gets you the
job, (and yes, please don't let this thread spiral down in that
direction..)).
I can think of so many different ways to make this easier for people who
simply lack the resources to complete the process. Resellers could sponsor
people who have scored 100% on their qualification test, giving them the
opportunity to harvest talent with the greatest potential, and easing the
cost for the candidate in turn. Students who have completed the exam process
and have equipment idling, could give away timeslots based on perceived
need, (closeness to exam date, origin of request). This list has a sister
site meant to create practice scenarios, that is still undeveloped. Don't
get me wrong, I have nothing but the deepest respect for those who choose to
use their knowledge to teach, and I admire your accomplishments, and in no
way would I want to impact upon what you do so well..
But there is a need.. there is a need to level the playing field so that
candidates by virtue of their hard work and perseverance, are given an equal
opportunity to learn and to grow, and come into their own as exceptional
engineers.
As for my own motives, it's very simple really, 'act as if by the maxim of
your actions were to become through your will a general natural law'. You
know, do onto others, umm.. making the world a better place starts with
you.. stuff like that.. But if you want to discuss the categorical
imperative, I suggest we do it offline.. :o)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Morris" <swm@emanon.com>
To: "'John Underhill'" <stepnwlf@magma.ca>; "'Xiangrong Wang'"
<xiangrow@cisco.com>; "'Ashok M A (aananda)'" <aananda@cisco.com>
Cc: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 11:39 AM
Subject: RE: Cisco IOU
> The points listed in your message were complaining more about Cisco not
> helping you pass your CCIE in a simpler fashion (succinct paraphrasing).
>
> What more could you possibly want??? There are a myriad of training
courses
> out there that you can take. If you are a partner, there is PELC (Partner
> E-Learning Connection) that you have at your disposal. There is certainly
> the DocCD.
>
> Yet, you center in on IOU as being a tool withheld from public purview and
> to give an internal advantage.
>
> What you need to do is sit back and think of what the CCIE means. The
CCIE
> has always been an "independent" group within Cisco, who's real purpose is
> to certify (NOT TRAIN) those who are to be deemed "experts" in the
> networking industry with regards to Cisco equipment. ILSG or WWT or
> whatever they're called today is the group that is responsible for the
> training mechanisms available, and creating the CCNA, CCNP, CQS stuff,
etc.
>
>
> But let me ask again... What more do you want? There are plenty of
things
> out there to assist you in learning what is necessary to pass the CCIE
lab.
> It's just not all in one place. If it were that easy, everyone would have
> the cert, and it wouldn't be valued as much (no, we are NOT having this
> discussion again).
>
> But what do you think to gain out of this? You state "when I hear of
> something like IOU, it does upset me" and therefore think you are not
> sufficiently nurtured?
>
> It would perhaps be better placed that Cisco put up tips on their website
to
> suggest that if you quit smoking, you'll have lots more money for that
voice
> module. (smirk)
>
> Back to the sense of irony though. Nobody ever said it was secret. He
> simply stated that it was for internal use only, and distribution to
anyone
> else was prohibited. Every company has internal programs. I travel a
lot,
> and I know the airlines have programs where internal folks can fly free or
> fly in first class seats at a mere pittance of what I pay. Does it do
> anything to my loyalty to an airline? No. Do I believe I am owed the
> chance to participate in this program? No. It is merely reality.
>
> Know what resources are available to you already. If you use them and you
> still have big problems that you think Cisco isn't stepping up to the
plate,
> then lodge the complaint in the appropriate place. There may be a need
that
> hasn't been identified before (or perhaps being worked on, but internal
> roadmaps aren't for public discussion either).
>
> But keying in on a tool that is available that really doesn't solve what
> your perceived problem is, isn't going to fix anything. Feel better
though?
>
> Scott
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Underhill [mailto:stepnwlf@magma.ca]
> Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 10:15 PM
> To: Scott Morris; 'Xiangrong Wang'; 'Ashok M A (aananda)'
> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> Subject: Re: Cisco IOU
>
> Hmmn.. telling someone not to talk about software that is supposed to be a
> company 'secret', and revealing that fact to the whole world in the
> process.. seems like this fits into the definition of irony to me..
> I do find it interesting though, that you would focus in with such a
narrow
> view of a much more substantial discussion, and in fact, avoid the key
> points, which have nothing to do with IOU..
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott Morris" <swm@emanon.com>
> To: "'John Underhill'" <stepnwlf@magma.ca>; "'Xiangrong Wang'"
> <xiangrow@cisco.com>; "'Ashok M A (aananda)'" <aananda@cisco.com>
> Cc: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 9:33 PM
> Subject: RE: Cisco IOU
>
>
> > Irony is defined as "incongruity between what might be expected and what
> > actually occurs", or "the use of words to express something different
from
> > and often opposite to their literal meaning."
> >
> > I don't see much ironic about his post, or about the existence of IOU.
> IOU
> > is a deliberate testing platform within Cisco internally. The fact that
> the
> > public knows about it is beside the point. There are many cool things
> that
> > the NSA has that we may "know" about. That doesn't make it ironic, nor
> does
> > it mean you have any right to use them.
> >
> > IOU was designed for certain testing concepts, and those concepts only.
> As
> > Xiangrong points out (ironic that you missed it?) the IOU is missing
many
> > key features and interfaces that make it all but impossible to use for
> CCIE
> > testing. So the question becomes: Having read this part, what makes
you
> > desire this tool? What do you think you could accomplish with it?
> >
> > Could you use a Sparc box to create a huge OSPF domain? Absolutely!
Will
> > this help you with your CCIE lab? Sure, in a limited sort of way (what?
> > 8-12 points for IGP OSPF?) Will it help you with your Voice? No. Will
> it
> > help you with ISDN? No. Will it help you with ATM? No. Will it help
> you
> > with a 3550? No. Do you need to have it? No. Does it give Cisco
> > "insiders" an edge for the CCIE lab? Absolutely not, other than testing
> > certain topics within certain parameters. Hardly seems worthwhile IMHO.
> >
> > But certainly does not fit the definition of "ironic", nor interfere
with
> > customer loyalty or ease of deployment. While I would love to be able
to
> > call Microsoft (or any other company you substitute) and demand that
they
> > give me access to internal tools to "ease" my life and "enhance" my
> loyalty,
> > I don't see it happening.
> >
> > Ask Alanis Morrisette about irony. She has a decent song about it. And
> > Cisco isn't mentioned once. ;)
> >
> > Scott
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> John
> > Underhill
> > Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 4:07 PM
> > To: Xiangrong Wang; Ashok M A (aananda)
> > Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > Subject: Re: Cisco IOU
> >
> > Witness: this is what is known as a 'clear cut case of irony'.
> > By deciding to respond to the group address, you realize of course, that
> you
> > have violated that same policy? All kidding aside..
> > I have always felt that it would serve the best interests of your
company
> to
> > make more resources available to CCIE candidates. Say, some subset of
the
> > learning tools that are available to channel partners, could also be
> > available to those that have passed the qualification exam. You have to
> look
> > at it in terms of investing company resources in those that are so
clearly
> > committed to investing in you. This is a symbiotic relationship, many of
> the
> > engineers that are committed to learning the nuances of your products,
are
> > also the same people who effect purchasing decisions within their
> respective
> > companies, and by better facilitating the learning process, you are in
> turn
> > both insuring product loyalty, and nurturing a culture of qualified
> > engineers. There are many technologies tested in the curriculum, that
are
> > simply too expensive for the average student to afford, and I can only
> > imagine the tremendous sacrifices made by people studying for this exam
in
> > the third world. So when I hear of something like IOU, it does upset
me..
> I
> > understand the potential impact if it were freely distributed, but I
also
> > wonder if the current process could to be made 'less exclusive' and cost
> > prohibitive by providing a free, limited access to some of these
> > technologies. It seems to me that the more engineers that are able to
> > embrace the CCIE curriculum unencumbered by financial constraints, the
> > greater the number of people with the required product knowledge needed
to
> > effectively install, maintain, and distribute your products..
> > Just my 2 cents.. I have to dig through my change jar now for cigarette
> > money, as I spent my entire paycheck on a voice module..
> >
> > cheers
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Xiangrong Wang" <xiangrow@cisco.com>
> > To: "Ashok M A (aananda)" <aananda@cisco.com>
> > Cc: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 2:47 PM
> > Subject: Re: Cisco IOU
> >
> >
> > > Hi Ashok,
> > >
> > > Cisco IOS on Unix is a tool intended for internal use only.
Distribution
> > of
> > > IOU images to customers or external persons, or discussion of IOU with
> > > customers or external persons, is prohibited.
> > >
> > > As a Cisco employee, you should follow the rules strictly, and
> discussion
> > > of this topic here may harm the study group as well. If you need help
on
> > > using IOU, please send your questions to internal mail alias.
> > > BTW, due to the limited support of interface on IOU, you still need
real
> > > routers to
> > > prepare for the IE lab.
> > >
> > > thanks,
> > > Xiangrong
> > >
> > > At 09:17 PM 06/18/04 +0530, Ashok M A \(aananda\) wrote:
> > > >Hi,
> > > >
> > > >It would be great if you could provide me some link and help pages on
> > Cisco
> > > >IOU.
> > > >
> > > >Thanks,
> > > >Ashok
> > > >
> > >
>_______________________________________________________________________
> > > >Please help support GroupStudy by purchasing your study materials
from:
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> > >
> > >
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