From: Scott Morris (swm@emanon.com)
Date: Wed May 12 2004 - 23:37:14 GMT-3
Don't assume. Safer that way.
I wasn't bashing those certifications. Belaboring the obvious points that
you had noted about being able to memorize the material makes them
inherently more straightforward. I did my MCSE, so been-there-done-that.
It served a purpose, as do all other certifications. However, by offering a
multiple choice test, statisticaly, a monkey does indeed have a chance of
passing the exams. (Note, I am not intending to offend monkeys either!)
My opinions about the matter have nothing to do with the quantity of
certifications that I have... I have done a number of the multiple choice
tests... A long time ago it was Novell tests, then it was Microsoft
tests... In the Cisco world alone, I've gone through CCNA (WAN Switching),
CCDA, CCDP, CQS - Cable, CQS - Remote Access, IP Tel Design, IP Tel Support,
CCSP and a number of other tests because I'm a certified Cisco instructor.
So it's not an opinion that I put out there without a significant amount of
experience to back it up. I don't think badly of any of those
certifications that I have.
However, the phiosophy behind the creation of the exams is different. In
all of the NA/NP/DA/DP/Specialist certification exams, the tests are owned
by the same people who created the courseware. There is often a direct
correlation between the two. Having created much of the existing (and
revised) cable modem courseware for Cisco, I also was lucky enough to
participate in the exam creation. A fun process all in all, but there is a
lot of debate that goes on at both ends of the process for what the goal is.
All of this falls within the ILSG folks at Cisco.
The CCIE program is a completely different beast designed and maintained by
completely different people. Their goal in life is to certify and maintain
people who are capable of expert-level work on Cisco devices. As you've
noted, there are many different tracks to cover different focus topics in
the industry. A "typical" enterprise network engineer would have little
hope of creating an MPLS-based network (no offense to enterprise folks),
while a service-provider infrastructure engineer would have equally little
hope creating a DLSW-based network. Tracks are debated and created to
address popular shifts like that in the marketplace(s) that Cisco sells
within.
As for the requirements that are listed on Cisco's web site, once you look
at the lab you get, you can see that things are very clearly delineated
there. Knowing enough about whatever track you are studying for, and
gaining the expert-level experience within that, you'll also be able to more
readily predict what kinds of topics and scenarios may be on your exam.
But, like in real life, you still need to be able to deal with the unknown
hitting you from behind. If it were simple, there would be a million CCIEs.
What fun would that be?
For the general knowledge and specific knowledge, you are referring only to
the written qualifying exam (which, by the way, I thought you needed to pass
before joining these lists (shrug)). While you aren't expected to know
detailed DLSW configurations for the Security exam, you are still expected
to know things like BGP configuration. I mean, you are going to maintain
security THROUGHOUT a network, are you not? If you only expect to ever deal
with one microcosm, there are more appropriate certs. (No offense intended,
just a plethora of topic-focussed certifications to demonstrate your
expertise in the areas you wish to play in)
All that being said, the quote was in context. :) Philosophically anyway.
Cheers,
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of Brad
Spencer
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 6:41 PM
To: swm@emanon.com; 'Dmitry Volkov'; 'CCIE# 12388'; 'Church, Chuck'; 'Teck
PhrEAk!!'; groupstudy@cconlinelabs.com; ccielab@groupstudy.com;
security@groupstudy.com
Subject: RE: VPN and IDS boxes!!!!
I assume the reasoning behind separating the CCIE exams into the tracks
marketed by Cisco is to place a testable focus on a particular networking
direction. To obtain the knowledge for a particular CCIE tract, general
knowledge and specific tract knowledge is needed. As I said before an over
generalized tract would not (the keyword here is over) prepare a CCIE
candidate for the tract being tested. One wouldn't study all the other
tracks in order to obtain a CCIE Security cert so there is indeed the need
to be specific about the technologies being tested. I have never sat the
CCIE lab but I would expect that they follow the outline they provide with
minimal marketing spin.
Scott,
I have sat and passed two CCSP tests and I found them similar to the MCSE
exams. I don't see precedence in this thread to justify bashing the
certifications you mentioned below then attribute any 'person' requiring
'straight forward' 'simple' certifications. At least you felt hate for
coming off 'that' way...
I see where your arguments come from being you already have 4 CCIE
certifications and it is now important for you to show that a widely
generalized information set of skills is important. I want you to feel
important about your knowledge but keep in mind some people on this list do
not value generalized CCIE Cisco knowledge but are pure security
professionals. I have read the CCIE outlines and I found that when I pass
the CCIE Security I will still have a _massive_ hole in my security
knowledge and my first direction in filling this void will not be to sit
more unrelated CCIE exams.
Cheers,
Brad
Anonymous
... Any fool can regurgitate Einstein quotes, but only the person that truly
listens can mention them in context.
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Morris [mailto:swm@emanon.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 3:52 PM
To: 'Brad Spencer'; 'Dmitry Volkov'; 'CCIE# 12388'; 'Church, Chuck'; 'Teck
PhrEAk!!'; groupstudy@cconlinelabs.com; ccielab@groupstudy.com;
security@groupstudy.com
Subject: RE: VPN and IDS boxes!!!!
You're missing the point then... And I really hate to come off this way,
but if you are looking for simple, straight-forward certifications, go look
at the A+ or Microsoft or TIA certs.
Now, that being said... There's a LOT of information that could be on the
CCIE lab. It's not up to those of us who come up with prep lab stuff, it's
up to Cisco. When you go through things in real life, you don't always get
to pick and choose the best stuff to work with.
Prep material, by definition, should be thorough but also leave room for
differences. Are you going to get pissed because your prep lab made you
learn FST encapsulation for DLSW but your real lab 'only' did TCP? What
about the other way around?
Kind of along the lines that you can't please everyone all the time, you
can't always pick what's going to be on a lab. Cisco has a huge amount of
things to choose from. And being an Expert does not mean that you really
care whether FST or TCP is used, but the fact that you can adapt and
implement either of them if the requirements call for it. The R&S is
Enterprise focussed. There is the widest breadth of topics that appear
here. Security, Voice and Service Provider are a bit more tightly focussed
if that helps any.
As I've said in many posts before, nobody can know it all. But when you
break things down to general technologies and learn those, you'll find that
there are many similarities throughout the stuff we have to learn. The
details can be found on the DocCD. If you're familiar with it though, you
won't be caught off guard by anything. THAT is the type of skillset (IMHO)
that Cisco is looking for in an Expert. Not the fact that you have
memorized what the SAP values are in order to crank down a DLSW peer.
The functionality of Cisco's equipment has NOTHING to do with what you get
hit with on the exam. You're looking for something real life, but
unfortunately, you seem to be forming your opinion around your perception of
real life. Which is completely different than my perception, which is
likely a lot different than many other people's perceptions on this list...
The point, as you have illustrated there, is that you "nearly memorize for
each exam." That's not an expert.
As Albert Einstein once said, "Any fool can know. The point is to
understand."
Scott Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713, CISSP,
JNCIP, et al.
IPExpert CCIE Program Manager
IPExpert Sr. Technical Instructor
swm@emanon.com/smorris@ipexpert.net
http://www.ipexpert.net
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Spencer [mailto:bradsp@outworks.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 2:50 PM
To: 'Dmitry Volkov'; 'Scott Morris'; 'CCIE# 12388'; 'Church, Chuck'; 'Teck
PhrEAk!!'; groupstudy@cconlinelabs.com; ccielab@groupstudy.com;
security@groupstudy.com
Subject: RE: VPN and IDS boxes!!!!
As paying CCIE lab customers we need to see a well documented hardware and
knowledge list that consistently matches CCIE lab preparation
recommendations. Over generalizing or under generalizing the recommended
preparation material is counterproductive and makes for unhappy CCIE
customers.
I have invested many thousands to be a Cisco aficionado, but I don't see
myself being so diehard in recommending Cisco equipment if I ever fail any
Cisco exam due to over generalized or under generalized Cisco test
preparation material.
I have only seen the CCSP tests so far and I found the preparation material
to be fairly deep, enough to give me enough knowledge to figure things out
in the field. The actual test questions I found were either too easy to be
on the exam or were questions that did not belong on the exam based on the
Cisco press study book - which I nearly memorize for each exam.
Anyway, that is my experience and concerns with Cisco certs so far.
Brad
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Dmitry Volkov
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 12:35 PM
To: 'Scott Morris'; 'CCIE# 12388'; 'Church, Chuck'; 'Teck PhrEAk!!';
groupstudy@cconlinelabs.com; ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com
Subject: RE: VPN and IDS boxes!!!!
IDS and Conc were announced since Sept 29 2003. And it passed MANY months
until they actually appeared (actually I don't know if it actually happened
at all :) This was NOT fair game. People had to buy all this stuff despite
it was not tested at all.
I believe that CCIE Sec should know Conc and Appliance and It's right way
that it's in the list know and year ago it was not in the hardware list.
Nobody can know everything and if test includes something - it must be
tested - in general. It perfectly reasonable that somebody gets some stuff
on lab and somebody else - doesn't (like IDS on IOS or IDS on Linux),
however it's not reasonable if it's listed but actually is never tested.
Otherwise - why Lab equipment is listed on "Prepare for the Lab exam" page
at all ?
P.S. Despite I'm kind of grumpy here - I'm personally happy that I learned
Conc and ids 4.1 :o)
Dmitry
R&S/Sec
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com]On Behalf Of
> Scott Morris
> Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 11:56 AM
> To: 'CCIE# 12388'; 'Church, Chuck'; 'Teck PhrEAk!!';
> groupstudy@cconlinelabs.com; ccielab@groupstudy.com;
> security@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: VPN and IDS boxes!!!!
>
>
> Absolutely true! Look at the economics. :)
>
> I know it's been a while since anyone mentioned it, but these things
> all fall into the category of "Anything is Fair Game"... Know it all!
>
> You may get a lab that doesn't have IDS. You may get a lab that has a
> LOT of IDS. Do you know before you show up which lab you're getting?
> No.
>
> In the R&S.... You may get DLSW, or you may not. You may have L3
> stuff spread throughout your switches, you may have a simple L2
> architecture. You never know.
>
> Just like the Boy Scouts say... "Be Prepared"
>
>
> Scott Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713,
> CISSP, JNCIP, et al.
> IPExpert CCIE Program Manager
> IPExpert Sr. Technical Instructor
> swm@emanon.com/smorris@ipexpert.net
> http://www.ipexpert.net
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> Of CCIE# 12388
> Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 10:00 PM
> To: Church, Chuck; Teck PhrEAk!!; groupstudy@cconlinelabs.com;
> ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com
> Subject: Re: VPN and IDS boxes!!!!
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Church, Chuck" <cchurch@wamnetgov.com>
> To: "Teck PhrEAk!!" <phreakinphunk@hotmail.com>;
> <groupstudy@cconlinelabs.com>; <ccielab@groupstudy.com>;
> <security@groupstudy.com>
> Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 8:20 AM
> Subject: RE: VPN and IDS boxes!!!!
>
>
> > Sumit,
> >
> > The NDA pretty much states that you're not allowed to describe
> > anything you see or hear in the lab. Asking other people these
> > questions is asking them to violate the NDA. Your best and
> safest bet
> > is to know everything on the blueprint/equipment list
> inside and out.
> > On the bright side, looks like you can get an IDS on EBAY
> for about $350
> > right now. VPN conc is around $1500. If you plan on reselling them
> > when you're done, it's probably cheaper in the long run
> than a wasted
> > lab attempt.
> >
> >
> > Chuck Church
> > Lead Design Engineer
> > CCIE #8776, MCNE, MCSE
> > Wam!Net Government Services - Design & Implementation Team
> > 13665 Dulles Technology Dr. Ste 250
> > Herndon, VA 20171
> > Office: 703-480-2569
> > Cell: 703-819-3495
> > cchurch@wamnetgov.com
> > PGP key:
> >
> http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=index&search=cchurch%40
> wamnetgov.
> > com
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com]
> On Behalf Of
> > Teck PhrEAk!!
> > Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 3:25 AM
> > To: groupstudy@cconlinelabs.com; ccielab@groupstudy.com;
> > security@groupstudy.com
> > Subject: VPN and IDS boxes!!!!
> >
> > Man!
> >
> > I dont see how asking for what topics to study for, for the exam is
> > breaking the NDA??
> > Even if someone wants to ask a question with all the right
> intentions
> > and without crossing the line.....someone always brings up the NDA
> > thingy........guilt??........maybe.
> >
> > Would you appear for an exam (costing $1250) not to mention
> > international air tickets and accomodation and the oh! so expensive
> > training/books and equipment rentals without knowing what to study??
> > Without knowing all the topics covered??
> >
> > I WOULDNT....for me its in excess of $5000/attempt...have to travel
> > half-way around the globe for an attempt.....and dont
> expect to shock
> > myself with hardware that i have never worked on before.
> >
> > Sumit P. Ahuja
> > CCIE(R&S)#11125,CCDP,CCNP,RHCE,SCSA,MCSE,IBM e-Com CCIE Security
> > Candidate.
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: "Tony Schaffran" <groupstudy@cconlinelabs.com>
> > >Reply-To: "Tony Schaffran" <groupstudy@cconlinelabs.com>
> > >To: "'Teck PhrEAk!!'" <phreakinphunk@hotmail.com>,
> > ><ccielab@groupstudy.com>, <security@groupstudy.com>
> > >Subject: RE: VPN and IDS boxes in Security Lab.
> > >Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 18:51:13 -0700
> > >
> > >I am certain that someone mentioned this the last time you asked.
> > >
> > >Please do not ask specifics about the lab. For someone
> that has taken
> > >the lab and answer you, it would be a violation of the NDA.
> > >
> > >If it is on the equipment list, then consider it in the lab.
> > >
> > >Tony Schaffran
> > >Network Analyst
> > >CCIE #11071
> > >CCNP, CCNA, CCDA,
> > >NNCDS, NNCSS, CNE, MCSE
> > >
> > >www.cconlinelabs.com
> > >Your #1 choice for online Cisco rack rentals.
> > >
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com]
> On Behalf Of
> >
> > >Teck PhrEAk!!
> > >Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 11:49 PM
> > >To: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com
> > >Subject: VPN and IDS boxes in Security Lab.
> > >
> > >Does any one know if the VPN and the IDS boxes have been
> introduced in
> > >the Lab exam yet??
> > >
> > >I am getting conflicting reports bout this...so dont know
> to prepare
> > >for it or not. Also i dont have access to these boxes.
> > >
> > >On the Cisco web-site it DOES appear in the equipment list though.
> > >
> > >
> > >HAALLLLPPPP!!!!!
> > >
> > >_________________________________________________________________
> > >Getting married? Find tips, tools and the latest trends at MSN Life
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> > >http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=married
> > >
> >
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