From: Howard C. Berkowitz (hcb@gettcomm.com)
Date: Sat Apr 03 2004 - 02:52:57 GMT-3
At 11:22 PM -0500 4/2/04, Chris Larson wrote:
>I agree about the pressure part somewhat
>
>I know or assume you weren't making a reference to my specific situation
>but...Using my situation as an example
>..
>I could not immedialty recall what mutlicast addy OSPF hellos and EIGRP use.
>I mean I knew one was 224.0.0.5 and one was 224.0.0.10.
You know, there's a terrible circularity here with the interview
process and Cisco certification exams: the overemphasis on easily
testable factoids. I've written and reviewed OSPF code in several
router implementations. I guarantee that nobody writes or
particularly remembers 224.0.0.5; they remember the much more
mnemnonic -- and straight out of the RFCs -- AllSPFRouters (and
AllDRouters).
Now, it would be far more important to be able to explain the
interactions among designated and nondesignated routers, how DR and
BDR election take place, etc., if you are trying to judge OSPF. It's
the general understanding that's important. Hopefully, the IESG
approved a BGP performance I-D today, and it will be approved for
RFC. Offhand, I would be certain of only one of our 5.5 authors*
could draw, from memory, all the BGP state machines and probably all
the attribute numbers, yet somehow we manage to get documents through
the IETF process. You see, the IETF and IESG assume that authors are
literate and can look up constants when they need them. The
reviewers are far more concerned that the concepts are theoretically
and practically sound.
*The Internet Engineering Steering Group came up with a new rule that
RFCs could only have five coauthors. Our team really had six people.
To break the impasse, Alvaro Retana generously agreed to have his
name moved to an acknowledgement.
>I have not thought
>about it or been in front of a router in 6 months. I have done several
>succesfull design and implementation of both types of networks but recently
>I have been doing security and project management. Does that mean I have no
>clue or that I no longer have the skill to design and implement an OSPF
>network? Maybe it would lead you to believe I don't know what I am talking
>about and clueless..... I mean it is very basic. My resume shows a history
>of doing so successfully. Would I be lying because I suddenly couldn't
>recall? Or the invalid timer of rip. again, something I have not thought
>about in some time and escaped me in my interview. Embarrasing yes but
>relevant? Something the router gives up rather easily. Put me down in front
>of it.
I can point to OSPF networks of 2500 routers at the time, more later,
for which I came up with the main architecture. Can I tell you every
timer? I actually might for OSPF, because I once was involved with
some very timer-dependent code. Again, what is far more important,
IMNSHO, is the relationships among the timers, when and when not to
adjust them, etc.
Feh. Bah humbug.
>
>Anyway...I understand the importance of the technical aspects of an
>interview but it should be balanced with history and other supporting
>information. And the interview, unless it is a stress intyerview should at
>least be cordial
I don't necessarily recommend the technique to everyone -- it may be
that one needs to grow up in New York metropolitan traditions of
chutzpah -- but it is possible to turn around certain kinds of stress
interviews. The couple of times I've testified as an expert witness,
I've used the latitude inherent in that role to take the
counteroffensive against an ill-prepared lawyer cross-examining.
Perhaps the ultimate is to be a patient in a teaching hospital, be
visited by a patronizing senior resident with a gaggle of students in
train, and answer the "how are we today" with "I cannot comment on
your well-being without performing a history and physical on you. Let
me, however, present my case," going into a textbook presentation of
my history, clinical course, differential diagnosis ant treatment
plan. The ultimate zing comes when I take on the role of a tenured
full professor and start asking the resident "and now, doctor, given
the inconsistent presentation of serum potassium levels in this
patient, would you illuminate the group on the differential diagnosis
of idiopathic hypokalemia?"
>
>
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>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "J. Kata" <j@jkata.com>
>To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
>Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 8:12 PM
>Subject: Re: Bad Interview Experience
>
>
>> It's both.
>>
>> Good for people who are honest.
>> Bad for people who are less than.
>>
>> Good for people who know what they are talking about.
>> Bad for people who don't have a clue.
>>
>> Good for people who perform well under pressure.
>> Bad for those who don't.
>>
>> etc.
>>
>>
>> - Jan
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ian Stong" <istong@stong.org>
>>
>> > Note sure if you are suggesting it was a good thing or a bad thing that
> > > he did that. I think it sounds like a great idea in that it would give
>> > you insight into many aspects of the person. If they had all sorts of
>> > technical skills on their resume but couldn't answer questions about
>> > them then they may be prone to exaggeration, lying, etc. Also if you
>> > are looking for a technical person it's also a good way to weed out
>> > those who are not. I've found in interviewing people that often a
>> > resume can look great with lots of awesome looking jobs and skills but
>> > they turn out to have done little and know even less :)
>> >
>> >
>> > Ian
>> > www.ccie4u.com
>> > Cisco Lab Scenarios and Rack Rentals
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
>> > Jan K
>> > Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 4:21 PM
>> > To: ccielab@groupstudy.com
>> > Subject: Re: Bad Interview Experience
>> >
>> > One interviewer I knew intentionally didn't read anything past the
>> > skills
>> > portion on the resume lest he become too impressed by the subject's
>> > experience (or underwhelmed).
>> >
>> > During the interview he would basically grill you on whatever you dared
>> > to
>> > put down in your skills section, looking for weak spots and fibs. If you
>> > passed, the interview process proceeded. If you failed, goodbye. It was
>> > just
>> > a very efficient and meritocratic way of narrowing down the candidates.
>> >
>> > This person, btw, had 10+ years of experience, starting out as a cable
>> > installer, and was a vp at the time working for a major bank/brokerage
>> > (csfb). He didn't have a single certification and found people who had
>> > the
>> > audacity to call themselves experts (the e in ccie) totally unimpressive
>> > and
>> > somewhat pretentious after one of them couldn't tell him what the
>> > default
>> > enable password for Catalyst 6500's was.
>> >
>> > - Jan
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Chris Larson" <clarson52@comcast.net>
>> >
>> >
>> > > My VistaPrint Electronic Business CardI just thought I would throw out
>> > an
>> > > experience I had yesterday. It was very unnerving and I wonder if
>> > others
>> > have
>> > > had similiar experiences. I have been in networking for better then 12
>> > years
>> > > but only got CCIE certified in the last year. I have had lots of
>> > interviews
>> > > throughout my carreer, most have had a technical aspect but I never
>> > felt
>> > > uncomfortable in any of them until yesterday.
>> > >
>> >
>> > <snip>
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________________________________
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