From: Howard C. Berkowitz (hcb@gettcomm.com)
Date: Wed Mar 24 2004 - 23:57:13 GMT-3
At 5:55 PM -0800 3/24/04, CHIONG, ERWIN R (ASI) wrote:
>To whoever is monitoring this forum,
>
>I just wanted to THANK YOU for filtering all the recent junk messages, and
>for keeping this forum a legitimate resource for our technology.
>
>Regards,
>-Erwin
Erwin,
Let me respond both as a moderator and as someone with quite a few
years in the field. I respect that you have asked several substantive
questions, and answered a few.
Some of the people that you criticize as being off-topic have been on
the list for several years. I'd make a reasonable guess that some of
them have made hundreds to thousands of substantive posts about
details of the technology.
If they choose to make a comment about things related to successful
work at the CCIE level, about methods of learning and methods of
working, etc. You make some points about what the forum was created
for, and you aren't completely wrong -- but, having been involved in
some of the creation, you aren't completely right.
In practice, some of the more experienced people may seem to get off
topic. Now, there are many good learning resources out there, some
commercial, some not. It's certainly appropriate for someone to thank
people or organizations they believe helped in their efforts.
But I would suggest strongly that you look at the history of some of
the people you may be criticizing, and see if they may have earned
some latitude through their overall contributions -- or, indeed,
their apparently off-topic post may be quite relevant in a
non-obvious way. Some of us, indeed, may occasionally make posts that
are silly in nature. There's a time and place for humor, and that
doesn't exclude technical discussions -- sometimes a joke winds up
being a good memory aid for remembering a specific bit of information.
Mailing lists, newsgroups, etc., are all virtual communities with
their own culture. It can be very informative, for example, to join
one of the many open IETF working groups. Most people with
experience in such groups advise newcomers to lurk a bit and get a
sense of the frequent posters and the informal culture of the group,
before leaping in, especially to criticize. I'm watching with some
amusement, for example, as one newbie on the IDR working group list
-- the group responsible for BGP development -- is merrily asking why
BGP doesn't do things it wasn't intended to do, and that other things
specifically are intended to do. Some of the people being challenged
are people that wrote major parts of the standard, have implemented
router code, large provider networks, or protocol validation systems
-- or all of the above.
Howard
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: CHIONG, ERWIN R (ASI)
>Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 7:58 AM
>To: CHIONG, ERWIN R (ASI); 'Richard Dumoulin'; 'SANCHEZ-MONGE,ANTONIO
>(HP-France,ex2)'; 'Howard C. Berkowitz'; 'ccielab@groupstudy.com';
>'nobody@groupstudy.com'
>Subject: RE: NetMasterClass training
>
>
>These are all interesting opinions. But, this is getting REALLY ridiculous.
>
>My purpose for sending the original post was to SHARE another resource
>(NetMasterClass) for obtaining excellent training on the technology of
>internetworking, and to make a distinction between learning versus
>understanding. Let's NOT misunderstand that I am NOT suggesting that we all
>need to attend a 5-day course to be serious about this technology, or learn
>a new language to be proficient with internetworking...I do NOT believe this
>forum was made for these opinions.
>
>I believe that we have subscribed to this forum as professional engineers
>who have a passion for this technology and wish to further improve our
>technical skills.
>
>Thanks again to the CCIE participants and professional engineers who help
>develop our skills by focusing on the technical nature of the forum, rather
>than obscuring it...please DO NOT post otherwise!
>
>Regards,
>-Erwin
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Richard Dumoulin [mailto:richard.dumoulin@vanco.es]
>Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 11:59 AM
>To: SANCHEZ-MONGE,ANTONIO (HP-France,ex2); 'Howard C. Berkowitz';
>ccielab@groupstudy.com
>Subject: RE: NetMasterClass training
>
>Moreover one day spanish will become the most spoken language !!
>
>-----Mensaje original-----
>De: SANCHEZ-MONGE,ANTONIO (HP-France,ex2)
>[mailto:antonio.sanchez-monge@hp.com]
>Enviado el: martes, 23 de marzo de 2004 19:27
>Para: 'Howard C. Berkowitz'; ccielab@groupstudy.com
>Asunto: RE: NetMasterClass training
>
>
>Well, good English skills are not needed everywhere. They are in the US, UK
>and Australia, but I know many examples of people with very respectable jobs
>(is Prime Minister a respectable job?) who do not speak a word of English.
>We live in a multicultural, "multilingual" world.
>
>Vale?
>
>;)
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Howard C. Berkowitz [mailto:hcb@gettcomm.com]
>Sent: martes, 23 de marzo de 2004 18:39
>To: ccielab@groupstudy.com
>Subject: Re: NetMasterClass training
>
>
>At 5:05 PM +0000 3/23/04, jgraun@comcast.net wrote:
>>Thank you Tom I am glad you understand what must be done. You see,
>>I have meet CCIE's that cannot redistribute between two routing
>>protocols and dont know what proxy arp is! Why is that everybody
>>has this opinion that going into the computer field is easy?! Do
>>you see construction workers switching to become CPA's or Lawyers?
>>NO! And there is a reason. I have seen too many people that have no
>>business touching a production system getting paid well and being
>>idiots. It is very frustrating when you have all these hacks that
>>think they are your peer and they cannot spell the word computer.
>>
>
>Frustrating? An understatement, and I speak literally of your
>example. Something I see all too frequently on groupstudy is very
>nonstandard spelling, probably in the style of people who make much
>use of instant messaging. I can understand this, to an extent, for
>people for whom English is not their first language, because they may
>not see as much proper writing.
>
>While it isn't formally part of any Cisco exam, the ability to write
>coherent and professional English is going to be important in getting
>through hiring and, at the very least, advancing in the job.
>Ignoring Dilbertian Pointy-Haired Bosses, one of the distinguishing
>marks of someone that moves up the professional ladder is the ability
>to teach, the ability to document well enough that someone can
>understand what they did without personal interpretation, and the
>ability to communicate to nontechnical managers and clients.
>
>"What u have 2 do 2 ur puter" simply doesn't cut it [0]. It doesn't
>even improve communication here. In many respects, this mailing list
>is a practice environment for real jobs. It's as good a place as any
>to get into the habits of clear writing.
>
>
>[0] I am _not_ going to be drawn into Clintonian discussions of the meaning
> of "it" or "is". Fool Yoda not is!
>
>_______________________________________________________________________
>Please help support GroupStudy by purchasing your study materials from:
>http://shop.groupstudy.com
>
>Subscription information may be found at:
>http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>
>_______________________________________________________________________
>Please help support GroupStudy by purchasing your study materials from:
>http://shop.groupstudy.com
>
>Subscription information may be found at:
>http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
>
>_______________________________________________________________________
>Please help support GroupStudy by purchasing your study materials from:
>http://shop.groupstudy.com
>
>Subscription information may be found at:
>http://www.groupstudy.com/list/CCIELab.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Thu Apr 01 2004 - 08:15:46 GMT-3