From: Church, Chuck (cchurch@wamnetgov.com)
Date: Tue Mar 23 2004 - 15:38:30 GMT-3
Jason,
Lighten up! Every profession is going to have those considered good, bad, and those somewhere in the middle. There are bad doctors, bad lawyers, bad astronauts, etc. Unless you're using the CCIE as a status symbol, it really shouldn't matter. Remember, no one is an expert at everything. There are those good at platform issues like fixing a 7500 VIP crashing, those who can plan a large scale migration, and those who can spot a complicated redistribution problem. All require 'expert' knowledge, but draw from different mentalities and different backgrounds. Fortunately, we live in an economy where employers look at experience heavily. Most jobs these days paying 6 figures are going to involve a series of hard-core interviews. Don't feel that a 'lab-rat' with no experience will get a free ride, just because of 4 little letters. Let your resume do the talking, and never stop learning!
Just my .02 though...
Chuck Church
Lead Design Engineer
CCIE #8776, MCNE, MCSE
Wam!Net Government Services - Design & Implementation Team
13665 Dulles Technology Dr. Ste 250
Herndon, VA 20171
Office: 703-480-2569
Cell: 703-819-3495
cchurch@wamnetgov.com
PGP key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=index&search=cchurch%40wamnetgov.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jgraun@comcast.net [mailto:jgraun@comcast.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 12:06 PM
> To: Thomas Larus
> Cc: 'Sam Meftahi'; 'Richard Dumoulin'; 'CHIONG, ERWIN R (ASI)';
> ccielab@groupstudy.com
> Subject: Re: NetMasterClass training
>
>
> Thank you Tom I am glad you understand what must be done.
> You see, I have meet CCIE's that cannot redistribute between
> two routing protocols and dont know what proxy arp is! Why
> is that everybody has this opinion that going into the
> computer field is easy?! Do you see construction workers
> switching to become CPA's or Lawyers? NO! And there is a
> reason. I have seen too many people that have no business
> touching a production system getting paid well and being
> idiots. It is very frustrating when you have all these hacks
> that think they are your peer and they cannot spell the word computer.
>
> Jason CCIE CISSP
> Author of "CCIE wake the fuck up" Stop the tools from
> infecting the rest of us
> > Yes. Jason is right. You should have to prove that you
> have drawn a
> > paycheck for sufficient number of years in a job that
> clearly involves
> > network engineering before you can even take the CCIE
> Written Exam. That
> > way someone who is paid to sit in front of a computer
> screen waiting for a
> > link to fail or a trouble ticket to arrive, and then calls
> TAC or a more
> > senior engineer, and types in exactly what TAC or the more
> senior engineer
> > tells him to type in, will be qualified to take the CCIE
> Written Exam.
> >
> > And those pesky career-changers from law or accounting or
> other unrelated
> > fields, or lowly network technicians or desktop support
> folks who have never
> > configured a production router in a job will be kept from inflicting
> > themselves on the networks of the world.
> >
> > Don't you just hate those people who have never earned the
> trust of a
> > discerning employer to configure a production router, but
> arrogantly decide
> > to:
> >
> > 1) read 6000+ pages of Cisco Press books,
> >
>
> > 2) study several thousand pages of IOS documentation and
> CCO articles,
> >
> > 3) do over 600 hours of challenging hands-on lab scenarios
> >
> > and THEN
> >
> > 4) attend a boot camp to learn some advanced lessons and
> see where they need
> > to do more work.
> >
> > It is no surprise that after two years of pursuing this Lab
> Rat regimen some
> > of these Lab Rats slip through and snag a certification
> that they had no
> > business even studying for. They Lab Rats are nothing but
> fakes, and cannot
> > begin to know what that guy who WAS PAID to watch a screen
> and type in
> > commands on a real router knows. For one thing, they are
> just the kind of
> > fakes who will try to put a Cat 6500 blade into 7500
> router, while the
> > experienced network engineer who has been watching the
> screen for many years
> > would NEVER make such a stupid mistake. Because, of
> course, all people who
> > have held jobs with titles "network engineer" for several
> years, know the
> > ins and outs of all Cisco hardware and software, not to
> mention the details
>
> > of TCP, cabling, and so many other things. Anyone who hold
> a job as a
> > network engineer will have all the basic networking skills
> that should be
> > acquired before one ever gets the job title of Network
> Engineer. But you
> > never know with those Lab Rats. For one thing, since they
> have not held a
> > networking job for years, they may not know how to cover
> their tracks or
> > shift blame when they make serious mistakes. (I am not
> implying that all
> > seasoned network engineers make serious mistakes, but that
> being experienced
> > is not necessarily a guarantee that one will not make
> serious mistakes.)
> >
> > To stop this fraud on the system, a CISSP-style experience
> requirement will
> > not be sufficient, as many people have slipped through that
> with too little
> > experience. Now if they had simply paid their dues and
> worked as security
> > guards or "loss-prevention" consultants," at TJ Maxx for
> the correct number
> > of years, they would be deserving.
> >
> > No. We need laws to prevent irresponsible vendors and
> booksellers from
>
> > selling lab equipment or CCIE-related books to anyone who
> does not already
> > work in a network engineering position, or who cannot show
> proof that he or
> > she is a bona fide Cisco Academy student. The Cisco
> Academy program is the
> > appropriate path for those who wish to break into the Cisco
> networking
> > arena.
> >
> > Any CCIE who teaches in a CCIE bootcamp that lets in
> students who do not
> > already hold network engineering jobs should lose their CCIE status
> > permanently.
> >
> > All of the problems that we experience in our networks
> today are due to Lab
> > Rat CCIEs who, with no network engineering experience, are
> hired as Lead
> > Network Engineers at the largest enterprises in America,
> whose incompentent
> > managers hire Lab Rats based solely on their CCIE status,
> and never look at
> > the Work Experience part of a CCIE's resume, and never ask
> a CCIE about what
> > they have done in real, production networks.
> >
> > Just for the benefit of the sarcasm-challenged, this is
> SARCASM. SARCASM.
> > SARCASM. SARCASM
> >
> > Best regards,
>
> > Tom Larus, CCIE #10,014
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jason Graun" <jgraun@comcast.net>
> > To: "'Sam Meftahi'" <SAF@sonofon.dk>; "'Richard Dumoulin'"
> > <richard.dumoulin@vanco.es>; "'CHIONG, ERWIN R (ASI)'"
> <ec2929@sbc.com>;
> > <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 8:10 AM
> > Subject: RE: NetMasterClass training
> >
> >
> > > I am saying we should NOT be taking 5-day lab crash
> courses. Taking the
> > lab
> > > is like a wine it ages over time and improves, trying to
> force the lab by
> > > going to boot camps and being a lab rat only cheapens the
> lab. You must
> > > understand the theory of routing, of MAC-to-IP address
> mapping, and the
> > why
> > > behind all this to truly set yourself apart. I would
> really like to see
> > > Cisco go to a CISSP style verification on top what they do know.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Sam Meftahi [mailto:SAF@sonofon.dk]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 1:32 AM
> > > To: Richard Dumoulin; Jason Graun; CHIONG, ERWIN R (ASI);
> > > ccielab@groupstudy.com
>
> > > Subject: RE: NetMasterClass training
> > >
> > > IMHO, the emphasis was on understanding the technology
> instead of learning
> > > it(not about taking classes !). There is a slight nuance here.
> > > When u learn routing, u know how to configure it, but
> when u understand it
> > u
> > > can bend it back and forward, fine tune it etc..
> > >
> > > This has nothing to do about how u achieve this level.
> > > But yes, I agree troubleshooting in labs and live network
> is invaluable.
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > Sam
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: nobody@groupstudy.com
> [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com]On Behalf Of
> > > Richard Dumoulin
> > > Sent: 23. March 2004 08:20
> > > To: Jason Graun; 'CHIONG, ERWIN R (ASI)'; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > > Subject: RE: NetMasterClass training
> > >
> > >
> > > Not sure I like your ironical comment. Do u mean we should all be
> > attending
> > > a 5-day only course to become experts ?
> > > In my opinion nothing replaces the day to day
> troubleshoot/research at
> > > work/lab,
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > --Richard
> > >
>
> > > -----Mensaje original-----
> > > De: Jason Graun [mailto:jgraun@comcast.net]
> > > Enviado el: martes, 23 de marzo de 2004 7:27
> > > Para: 'CHIONG, ERWIN R (ASI)'; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > > Asunto: RE: NetMasterClass training
> > >
> > >
> > > That is good, finally somebody gets it that you must
> first understand the
> > > technology and theory behind it before you can become a
> real expert. That
> > > is a breath of fresh air around here.
> > >
> > > Jason
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: nobody@groupstudy.com
> [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> > > CHIONG, ERWIN R (ASI)
> > > Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 2:02 PM
> > > To: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > > Subject: NetMasterClass training
> > >
> > > I just completed a very intensive 5-day course from
> NetMasterClass in
> > > preparation for the CCIE lab, and discovered more about
> this intriguing
> > > technology than just trying to obtain the certification. I finally
> > realized
> > > the big difference between learning the technology and
> understanding the
>
> > > technology. I'm sure most of us can learn the technology
> by studying 24x7
> > > (and eventually pass the lab). But, understanding the theory and
> > > applications behind the different protocols and
> integrating them together
> > is
> > > another story.
> > >
> > > The instructors and staff at NetMasterClass really know
> how to help build
> > > this understanding. At first, I was a bit apprehensive in
> paying for the
> > > course myself. But after experiencing how much they truly
> care about
> > > teaching how the technology works and helping you
> understand the theory
> > and
> > > its applications (rather than just helping you pass the
> lab), I now know
> > > that their NMC2 course goes beyond the CCIE
> certification. For all the
> > > engineers who are really serious about this industry (not
> just for the
> > > certification), the NetMasterClass training is highly
> recommended. (and
> > no,
> > > I am not affiliated with the company...just a student of
> this industry who
> > > wishes to share my experience)
> > >
>
> > > PS. Thanks to Groupstudy and their CCIE participants for
> doing a great job
> > > in helping the rest of us improve our skills.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Erwin
> > >
> > >
> ______________________________________________________________
> _________
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