From: Thomas Larus (tlarus@cox.net)
Date: Tue Mar 23 2004 - 14:18:18 GMT-3
Did you read the entire post, including the SARCASM alert at the end (in all
capital letters)? I admit the email was a bit long, but it should be clear
that I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Tom Larus, CCIE #10,014
Author of CCIE Warm-Up: Advice and Learning Labs
http://www.ipexpert.com/products_services/product.asp?sku=ip7777
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Matijevic" <matijevi@bellsouth.net>
To: "'Thomas Larus'" <tlarus@cox.net>; "'Jason Graun'" <jgraun@comcast.net>;
"'Sam Meftahi'" <SAF@sonofon.dk>; "'Richard Dumoulin'"
<richard.dumoulin@vanco.es>; "'CHIONG, ERWIN R (ASI)'" <ec2929@sbc.com>;
<ccielab@groupstudy.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 12:03 PM
Subject: RE: NetMasterClass training
> Hello Thomas,
> Guess what I am a lab rat as you describe. I don't have an official
> title of Network Engineer, but I do have lots of experience with Cisco
> IOS. If you think that someone who works so hard to learn the ins and
> outs of the IOS doesn't deserve to be recognized by Cisco as an expert
> with their product. Then that is your opinion. And if you don't think
> that lab rats should get jobs as network engineers I think you are being
> a little biased. I can tell you personally I have dedicated a lot of
> time and effort to not just learning Cisco in particular, but learning
> the protocols and how they interoperate in a Cisco environment. I have
> spent considerable amount of time with Netmaster and I tend to think
> that the training I spent their would help me a lot in the real world,
> as I have learned so much about networking technology from Bruce and
> Val. I am not hear to debate if a lab rat is any better than someone who
> has been in the field for years. But I think it's a mistake to
> generalize certain groups of people. I think there are good and bad
> people in every profession, I am sure there are certain network
> engineers that are not as good as others. But I do believe that once you
> are recognized by Cisco you are truly recognized as an expert in this
> field. Now lets all get back to studying.
> Sincerely,
> John
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> Thomas Larus
> Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 10:51 AM
> To: Jason Graun; 'Sam Meftahi'; 'Richard Dumoulin'; 'CHIONG, ERWIN R
> (ASI)'; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> Subject: Re: NetMasterClass training
>
> Yes. Jason is right. You should have to prove that you have drawn a
> paycheck for sufficient number of years in a job that clearly involves
> network engineering before you can even take the CCIE Written Exam.
> That
> way someone who is paid to sit in front of a computer screen waiting for
> a
> link to fail or a trouble ticket to arrive, and then calls TAC or a more
> senior engineer, and types in exactly what TAC or the more senior
> engineer
> tells him to type in, will be qualified to take the CCIE Written Exam.
>
> And those pesky career-changers from law or accounting or other
> unrelated
> fields, or lowly network technicians or desktop support folks who have
> never
> configured a production router in a job will be kept from inflicting
> themselves on the networks of the world.
>
> Don't you just hate those people who have never earned the trust of a
> discerning employer to configure a production router, but arrogantly
> decide
> to:
>
> 1) read 6000+ pages of Cisco Press books,
>
> 2) study several thousand pages of IOS documentation and CCO articles,
>
> 3) do over 600 hours of challenging hands-on lab scenarios
>
> and THEN
>
> 4) attend a boot camp to learn some advanced lessons and see where they
> need
> to do more work.
>
> It is no surprise that after two years of pursuing this Lab Rat regimen
> some
> of these Lab Rats slip through and snag a certification that they had no
> business even studying for. They Lab Rats are nothing but fakes, and
> cannot
> begin to know what that guy who WAS PAID to watch a screen and type in
> commands on a real router knows. For one thing, they are just the kind
> of
> fakes who will try to put a Cat 6500 blade into 7500 router, while the
> experienced network engineer who has been watching the screen for many
> years
> would NEVER make such a stupid mistake. Because, of course, all people
> who
> have held jobs with titles "network engineer" for several years, know
> the
> ins and outs of all Cisco hardware and software, not to mention the
> details
> of TCP, cabling, and so many other things. Anyone who hold a job as a
> network engineer will have all the basic networking skills that should
> be
> acquired before one ever gets the job title of Network Engineer. But
> you
> never know with those Lab Rats. For one thing, since they have not held
> a
> networking job for years, they may not know how to cover their tracks or
> shift blame when they make serious mistakes. (I am not implying that
> all
> seasoned network engineers make serious mistakes, but that being
> experienced
> is not necessarily a guarantee that one will not make serious mistakes.)
>
> To stop this fraud on the system, a CISSP-style experience requirement
> will
> not be sufficient, as many people have slipped through that with too
> little
> experience. Now if they had simply paid their dues and worked as
> security
> guards or "loss-prevention" consultants," at TJ Maxx for the correct
> number
> of years, they would be deserving.
>
> No. We need laws to prevent irresponsible vendors and booksellers from
> selling lab equipment or CCIE-related books to anyone who does not
> already
> work in a network engineering position, or who cannot show proof that he
> or
> she is a bona fide Cisco Academy student. The Cisco Academy program is
> the
> appropriate path for those who wish to break into the Cisco networking
> arena.
>
> Any CCIE who teaches in a CCIE bootcamp that lets in students who do not
> already hold network engineering jobs should lose their CCIE status
> permanently.
>
> All of the problems that we experience in our networks today are due to
> Lab
> Rat CCIEs who, with no network engineering experience, are hired as Lead
> Network Engineers at the largest enterprises in America, whose
> incompentent
> managers hire Lab Rats based solely on their CCIE status, and never look
> at
> the Work Experience part of a CCIE's resume, and never ask a CCIE about
> what
> they have done in real, production networks.
>
> Just for the benefit of the sarcasm-challenged, this is SARCASM.
> SARCASM.
> SARCASM. SARCASM
>
> Best regards,
> Tom Larus, CCIE #10,014
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jason Graun" <jgraun@comcast.net>
> To: "'Sam Meftahi'" <SAF@sonofon.dk>; "'Richard Dumoulin'"
> <richard.dumoulin@vanco.es>; "'CHIONG, ERWIN R (ASI)'" <ec2929@sbc.com>;
> <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 8:10 AM
> Subject: RE: NetMasterClass training
>
>
> > I am saying we should NOT be taking 5-day lab crash courses. Taking
> the
> lab
> > is like a wine it ages over time and improves, trying to force the lab
> by
> > going to boot camps and being a lab rat only cheapens the lab. You
> must
> > understand the theory of routing, of MAC-to-IP address mapping, and
> the
> why
> > behind all this to truly set yourself apart. I would really like to
> see
> > Cisco go to a CISSP style verification on top what they do know.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Sam Meftahi [mailto:SAF@sonofon.dk]
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 1:32 AM
> > To: Richard Dumoulin; Jason Graun; CHIONG, ERWIN R (ASI);
> > ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > Subject: RE: NetMasterClass training
> >
> > IMHO, the emphasis was on understanding the technology instead of
> learning
> > it(not about taking classes !). There is a slight nuance here.
> > When u learn routing, u know how to configure it, but when u
> understand it
> u
> > can bend it back and forward, fine tune it etc..
> >
> > This has nothing to do about how u achieve this level.
> > But yes, I agree troubleshooting in labs and live network is
> invaluable.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Sam
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com]On Behalf Of
> > Richard Dumoulin
> > Sent: 23. March 2004 08:20
> > To: Jason Graun; 'CHIONG, ERWIN R (ASI)'; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > Subject: RE: NetMasterClass training
> >
> >
> > Not sure I like your ironical comment. Do u mean we should all be
> attending
> > a 5-day only course to become experts ?
> > In my opinion nothing replaces the day to day troubleshoot/research at
> > work/lab,
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > --Richard
> >
> > -----Mensaje original-----
> > De: Jason Graun [mailto:jgraun@comcast.net]
> > Enviado el: martes, 23 de marzo de 2004 7:27
> > Para: 'CHIONG, ERWIN R (ASI)'; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > Asunto: RE: NetMasterClass training
> >
> >
> > That is good, finally somebody gets it that you must first understand
> the
> > technology and theory behind it before you can become a real expert.
> That
> > is a breath of fresh air around here.
> >
> > Jason
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> Of
> > CHIONG, ERWIN R (ASI)
> > Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 2:02 PM
> > To: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > Subject: NetMasterClass training
> >
> > I just completed a very intensive 5-day course from NetMasterClass in
> > preparation for the CCIE lab, and discovered more about this
> intriguing
> > technology than just trying to obtain the certification. I finally
> realized
> > the big difference between learning the technology and understanding
> the
> > technology. I'm sure most of us can learn the technology by studying
> 24x7
> > (and eventually pass the lab). But, understanding the theory and
> > applications behind the different protocols and integrating them
> together
> is
> > another story.
> >
> > The instructors and staff at NetMasterClass really know how to help
> build
> > this understanding. At first, I was a bit apprehensive in paying for
> the
> > course myself. But after experiencing how much they truly care about
> > teaching how the technology works and helping you understand the
> theory
> and
> > its applications (rather than just helping you pass the lab), I now
> know
> > that their NMC2 course goes beyond the CCIE certification. For all the
> > engineers who are really serious about this industry (not just for the
> > certification), the NetMasterClass training is highly recommended.
> (and
> no,
> > I am not affiliated with the company...just a student of this industry
> who
> > wishes to share my experience)
> >
> > PS. Thanks to Groupstudy and their CCIE participants for doing a great
> job
> > in helping the rest of us improve our skills.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Erwin
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________________________________
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