From: John Matijevic (matijevi@bellsouth.net)
Date: Tue Mar 23 2004 - 14:03:19 GMT-3
Hello Thomas,
Guess what I am a lab rat as you describe. I don't have an official
title of Network Engineer, but I do have lots of experience with Cisco
IOS. If you think that someone who works so hard to learn the ins and
outs of the IOS doesn't deserve to be recognized by Cisco as an expert
with their product. Then that is your opinion. And if you don't think
that lab rats should get jobs as network engineers I think you are being
a little biased. I can tell you personally I have dedicated a lot of
time and effort to not just learning Cisco in particular, but learning
the protocols and how they interoperate in a Cisco environment. I have
spent considerable amount of time with Netmaster and I tend to think
that the training I spent their would help me a lot in the real world,
as I have learned so much about networking technology from Bruce and
Val. I am not hear to debate if a lab rat is any better than someone who
has been in the field for years. But I think it's a mistake to
generalize certain groups of people. I think there are good and bad
people in every profession, I am sure there are certain network
engineers that are not as good as others. But I do believe that once you
are recognized by Cisco you are truly recognized as an expert in this
field. Now lets all get back to studying.
Sincerely,
John
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Thomas Larus
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 10:51 AM
To: Jason Graun; 'Sam Meftahi'; 'Richard Dumoulin'; 'CHIONG, ERWIN R
(ASI)'; ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: Re: NetMasterClass training
Yes. Jason is right. You should have to prove that you have drawn a
paycheck for sufficient number of years in a job that clearly involves
network engineering before you can even take the CCIE Written Exam.
That
way someone who is paid to sit in front of a computer screen waiting for
a
link to fail or a trouble ticket to arrive, and then calls TAC or a more
senior engineer, and types in exactly what TAC or the more senior
engineer
tells him to type in, will be qualified to take the CCIE Written Exam.
And those pesky career-changers from law or accounting or other
unrelated
fields, or lowly network technicians or desktop support folks who have
never
configured a production router in a job will be kept from inflicting
themselves on the networks of the world.
Don't you just hate those people who have never earned the trust of a
discerning employer to configure a production router, but arrogantly
decide
to:
1) read 6000+ pages of Cisco Press books,
2) study several thousand pages of IOS documentation and CCO articles,
3) do over 600 hours of challenging hands-on lab scenarios
and THEN
4) attend a boot camp to learn some advanced lessons and see where they
need
to do more work.
It is no surprise that after two years of pursuing this Lab Rat regimen
some
of these Lab Rats slip through and snag a certification that they had no
business even studying for. They Lab Rats are nothing but fakes, and
cannot
begin to know what that guy who WAS PAID to watch a screen and type in
commands on a real router knows. For one thing, they are just the kind
of
fakes who will try to put a Cat 6500 blade into 7500 router, while the
experienced network engineer who has been watching the screen for many
years
would NEVER make such a stupid mistake. Because, of course, all people
who
have held jobs with titles "network engineer" for several years, know
the
ins and outs of all Cisco hardware and software, not to mention the
details
of TCP, cabling, and so many other things. Anyone who hold a job as a
network engineer will have all the basic networking skills that should
be
acquired before one ever gets the job title of Network Engineer. But
you
never know with those Lab Rats. For one thing, since they have not held
a
networking job for years, they may not know how to cover their tracks or
shift blame when they make serious mistakes. (I am not implying that
all
seasoned network engineers make serious mistakes, but that being
experienced
is not necessarily a guarantee that one will not make serious mistakes.)
To stop this fraud on the system, a CISSP-style experience requirement
will
not be sufficient, as many people have slipped through that with too
little
experience. Now if they had simply paid their dues and worked as
security
guards or "loss-prevention" consultants," at TJ Maxx for the correct
number
of years, they would be deserving.
No. We need laws to prevent irresponsible vendors and booksellers from
selling lab equipment or CCIE-related books to anyone who does not
already
work in a network engineering position, or who cannot show proof that he
or
she is a bona fide Cisco Academy student. The Cisco Academy program is
the
appropriate path for those who wish to break into the Cisco networking
arena.
Any CCIE who teaches in a CCIE bootcamp that lets in students who do not
already hold network engineering jobs should lose their CCIE status
permanently.
All of the problems that we experience in our networks today are due to
Lab
Rat CCIEs who, with no network engineering experience, are hired as Lead
Network Engineers at the largest enterprises in America, whose
incompentent
managers hire Lab Rats based solely on their CCIE status, and never look
at
the Work Experience part of a CCIE's resume, and never ask a CCIE about
what
they have done in real, production networks.
Just for the benefit of the sarcasm-challenged, this is SARCASM.
SARCASM.
SARCASM. SARCASM
Best regards,
Tom Larus, CCIE #10,014
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jason Graun" <jgraun@comcast.net>
To: "'Sam Meftahi'" <SAF@sonofon.dk>; "'Richard Dumoulin'"
<richard.dumoulin@vanco.es>; "'CHIONG, ERWIN R (ASI)'" <ec2929@sbc.com>;
<ccielab@groupstudy.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 8:10 AM
Subject: RE: NetMasterClass training
> I am saying we should NOT be taking 5-day lab crash courses. Taking
the
lab
> is like a wine it ages over time and improves, trying to force the lab
by
> going to boot camps and being a lab rat only cheapens the lab. You
must
> understand the theory of routing, of MAC-to-IP address mapping, and
the
why
> behind all this to truly set yourself apart. I would really like to
see
> Cisco go to a CISSP style verification on top what they do know.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sam Meftahi [mailto:SAF@sonofon.dk]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 1:32 AM
> To: Richard Dumoulin; Jason Graun; CHIONG, ERWIN R (ASI);
> ccielab@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: NetMasterClass training
>
> IMHO, the emphasis was on understanding the technology instead of
learning
> it(not about taking classes !). There is a slight nuance here.
> When u learn routing, u know how to configure it, but when u
understand it
u
> can bend it back and forward, fine tune it etc..
>
> This has nothing to do about how u achieve this level.
> But yes, I agree troubleshooting in labs and live network is
invaluable.
>
> Cheers
>
> Sam
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com]On Behalf Of
> Richard Dumoulin
> Sent: 23. March 2004 08:20
> To: Jason Graun; 'CHIONG, ERWIN R (ASI)'; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: NetMasterClass training
>
>
> Not sure I like your ironical comment. Do u mean we should all be
attending
> a 5-day only course to become experts ?
> In my opinion nothing replaces the day to day troubleshoot/research at
> work/lab,
>
> Regards
>
> --Richard
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: Jason Graun [mailto:jgraun@comcast.net]
> Enviado el: martes, 23 de marzo de 2004 7:27
> Para: 'CHIONG, ERWIN R (ASI)'; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> Asunto: RE: NetMasterClass training
>
>
> That is good, finally somebody gets it that you must first understand
the
> technology and theory behind it before you can become a real expert.
That
> is a breath of fresh air around here.
>
> Jason
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
Of
> CHIONG, ERWIN R (ASI)
> Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 2:02 PM
> To: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> Subject: NetMasterClass training
>
> I just completed a very intensive 5-day course from NetMasterClass in
> preparation for the CCIE lab, and discovered more about this
intriguing
> technology than just trying to obtain the certification. I finally
realized
> the big difference between learning the technology and understanding
the
> technology. I'm sure most of us can learn the technology by studying
24x7
> (and eventually pass the lab). But, understanding the theory and
> applications behind the different protocols and integrating them
together
is
> another story.
>
> The instructors and staff at NetMasterClass really know how to help
build
> this understanding. At first, I was a bit apprehensive in paying for
the
> course myself. But after experiencing how much they truly care about
> teaching how the technology works and helping you understand the
theory
and
> its applications (rather than just helping you pass the lab), I now
know
> that their NMC2 course goes beyond the CCIE certification. For all the
> engineers who are really serious about this industry (not just for the
> certification), the NetMasterClass training is highly recommended.
(and
no,
> I am not affiliated with the company...just a student of this industry
who
> wishes to share my experience)
>
> PS. Thanks to Groupstudy and their CCIE participants for doing a great
job
> in helping the rest of us improve our skills.
>
> Regards,
> Erwin
>
>
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