From: Hoyle, Anthony (AL) (ALHoyle@dow.com)
Date: Sat Dec 06 2003 - 17:06:16 GMT-3
I concur with those comments. I don't have mine yet, I'm a few days away...-hopefully, but the rest of my senior
Collegaues who have it here (very few) -have it now for job security. Don't get me wrong it is still a plus, we have pretty good jobs,
and we want to keep them. I also agree /w Jakes comments earlier, you will probably not see the high touch specialist
Jobs going away for a number of reasons. I do know to be at the high end you'd better have a lot of
Principal insight with it (in other words 5 to ten years experience or more -in a very large multiservice network
or large service provider environment), and sometimes even that won't help you. Like some of you guys I'm hitting
Ten years in the next year, and this is all I know, but there are guys here hitting twenty, we are all scared*
Anthony Hoyle
EDS
WAN Infrastructure Analyst
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of Church, Chuck
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 2:35 PM
To: Jake; Thomas Larus; Cisco Babe; ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: RE: Re: MBA or CCIE Lab ?? (long)
Importance: Low
Jake,
Good points. I did forget to mention that this is NOT the time to begin a career in IT. With all the NAs, NPs, and even many IEs out there, you're competing against a lot of people. If you've got less then 5 years good experience in networking, earning your CCIE is no guarantee of salary exceeding $60K. A bachelors degree (in a real major, 'Recreation and Leisure' won't cut it :) is something else many employers either look for or insist on. But if you do have the experience, and a current decent job where you can learn while getting paid for it, then go for the CCIE. No reason you can't do both. Just don't try them at the same time. Rumor has it your head will explode!
Chuck Church
CCIE #8776, MCNE, MCSE
Wam!Net Government Services
13665 Dulles Technology Dr. Ste 250
Herndon, VA 20171
Office: 703-480-2569
Cell: 703-819-3495
cchurch@wamnetgov.com
PGP key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=index&search=cchurch%40wamnetgov.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jake [mailto:jakeczyz@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 1:47 PM
> To: Thomas Larus; Cisco Babe; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> Subject: OT: Re: MBA or CCIE Lab ?? (long)
>
>
> Everyone,
> I totally agree with Tom. [Hi Tom! How are you?]
> Although I've only been in IT for
> about 5 years, I see a strong trend downward. This year,
> according to industry research
> groups, 10% of US IT spending went overseas and it is
> expected to grow by 50% next year.
> While I agree with Chuck that CCIE level jobs are a somewhat
> unique niche that arguably
> requires more presence here than other jobs (e.g.
> programming), one mustn't forget one
> important point. In IT, we are all in the same boat. If
> programmers or "lower" level
> systems people lose their jobs in the US, they won't just
> disappear or take up careers in
> lawn care. Instead, they will retrain, "adjust" their
> resumes, or simply start applying
> themselves to the niches that are still here. By the basic
> principle of supply and
> demand, there will be less positions than there will be
> people willing to work in them
> and either qualified to do so or getting there fast. In other
> words, when one part of IT
> suffers, I would argue that we all suffer. Not to mention
> that if you think about it,
> when a significant portion of workers (programmers, and
> increasingly call-center CSR's)
> is moved overseas, a company will not need as many PC's,
> access switches..., routers, and
> yes, systems support people here. I am seeing this happening
> in the fortune 50 company I
> work at. Perhaps in smaller businesses the trend isn't as
> alarming. But like I said, loss
> in one area is troubling to everyone because if someone loses
> their job at a big firm
> they will settle for less pay at a small firm. Supply and
> demand tells us that
> consequently those people's pay will suffer.
> At my large company I'm the only CCIE (and I was able to
> pass on the first sit, for
> those of you that consider this to mean something), yet,
> because of company politics and
> the global economy, I've been put on the lowest level network
> team and my pay doesn't
> justify the $25K and considerable effort it took me to pass
> the ie. Let's just say union
> waste haulers and electricians in Illinois make more than I
> do (no joke). My teammate is
> a guy who has a Bachelor's in comp engineering from Purdue
> and is graduating with an MBA
> (not from a big name school) this month. Both of us have been
> in IT for about 5 years and
> both of us are getting out. The money to get the ie may be
> about half of what it takes to
> get an MBA, but the effort perhaps is comparable. In the 20
> months since I passed, the
> job market has been terrible, but even with the economy
> turning around, I don't see many
> employers willing to jump up with figures even %80 what they
> did 3 years ago for CCIE's.
> "Cisco Academies" and thousands of private schools have
> churned out CCNPs and MCSEs by
> the boatload. In some high schools in Illinois (and this is
> true for some major cities in
> other countries like India for example as well) kids are
> graduating from high school with
> these certifications even though they never plan to use them
> or if they do are willing to
> use them for $10 an hour. This is fantastic for vendors like
> Cisco and Microsoft, but if
> I was staying in this field I'd be nervous as heck.
>
> I know many on this list will admonish me for saying this,
> but unless you already have 5+
> years of heavy duty networking (especially security,
> wireless, some voip, etc.)
> experience [or, unlike me, you're willing to lie on your
> resume like many people do], the
> CCIE is not worth going for at this time. Use that money to
> finish your bachelors or go
> to grad school. You'll expand yourself in a breadth of
> knowledge rather than putting all
> your eggs in this one basket. I didn't think this way two and
> a half years ago when I
> started learning networking and preparing for my exam, but
> things have changed in the
> marketplace.
>
> Moreover, even in the last few years, average graduates from
> the top 10 MBA schools have
> been getting jobs starting around $90-100K (see US News and
> World Report Ranking guides).
> However, if you're unable to get into the top ones, I'm not
> sure how good the outlook is
> there. Looking at my company, at least, there seems to be a
> huge need for **competent**
> technical managers, but just because there's a need doesn't
> mean companies are wise
> enough to fill it, rather than just promoting people that
> have been around long enough.
>
> I know many reading this are very emotionally and financially
> vested in this endeavor,
> and I hope that I'm wrong and things will turn around. Some
> of you are friends of mine
> and CCIE instructors that I respect very much. So, again, I
> hope I'm wrong. But for all
> the voices that are promoting the IE, there needs to be some
> trying to balance the
> rhetoric toward the current realities of the market.
>
> Just my 2.5 cents. Personally, for now, I'm going back to college!
>
> Good luck to all,
> Jake "Gloom and Doom" CCIE #9102
>
>
>
>
>
> --- Thomas Larus <tlarus@cox.net> wrote:
> > It really depends on the MBA. All MBAs are not equal. In
> fact they vary so
> > widely as to be entirely different things.
> >
> > An MBA from some local University without a big-time reputation or
> > extraordinary demands made on the students is a very
> different thing from an
> > MBA from Harvard, Wharton or the like. Both kinds of MBAs
> can be valuable,
> > but for different kinds of career tracks.
> >
> > Your idea sounds pretty good, given the outsourcing
> problems. But you had
> > better make sure that you would like doing what managers
> do. Do you like
> > things like Microsoft Project, where the work of highly
> skilled and talented
> > technical employees is estimated and described as if it
> were an ingredient
> > in a cake recipe? Or making spreadsheets and knowing how
> to set certain
> > values so you get the results you want.
> >
> > On the other hand, you can be the person whose time is put
> in the project as
> > if it were an ingredient in a recipe, and for which a
> cheaper ingredient can
> > be easily substituted. Your idea sounds better the more
> one considers it.
> >
> > Tom Larus, CCIE #10,014
> > Author of CCIE Warm-Up: Advice and Learning Labs
> > http://www.ipexpert.com/products_services/product.asp?sku=ip7777
> > tlarus@ipexpert.com
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Cisco Babe" <ciscobabee@yahoo.com>
> > To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 9:26 AM
> > Subject: MBA or CCIE Lab ??
> >
> >
> > > Hi everyone!
> > >
> > > Looking to start MBA and possibly delaying the CCIE
> > > lab for the MBA. Main Reason is the outsourcing of
> > > tech jobs. My company has started outsourcing, same
> > > with many of my friends across the nation. Started to look at
> > > other options for a 5 year plan and the MBA seems to give
> > > additional options if I am out on the street looking for a job in
> > > 5 years.
> > >
> > > Like to get everyones feedback and view on the MBA
> > > vs. the Lab.
> > >
> > > Thanks!
>
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