From: Matt Wagner (miguknom@xxxxxxxxxxx)
Date: Wed Jul 24 2002 - 22:43:41 GMT-3
Darby, I thought your article was great and echoed a lot of my concerns. I
am perhaps more optimistic about the future, but I have watched the value
dropping as you have so aptly described.
As for Jonathon, there is probabaly a button on your email client that you
can click on to delete email that you don't want to read. I liked Darby's
email more than yours. OOPS! I should have just clicked on the delete
button...
Matt
P.S., I thought Paul busted people that told people outright to shut up.
What is the policy these days?
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Jonathan V Hays" <jhays@jtan.com>
Reply-To: "Jonathan V Hays" <jhays@jtan.com>
To: "'Darby Weaver'" <dweaver@doubleeagleservices.com>,
<ccielab@groupstudy.com>
Subject: RE: WAKE UP CALL! You "only have a CCIE" and you want more than
50-60k - Better Read... Re: OT. Any guarantee that the CCIE
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:31:07 -0700
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FILETIME=[EDE4FB20:01C23342]
Darby,
Please cease these diatribes.
Like most others on this list I am studying for the CCIE Lab exam. I
enjoy off-topic non-Lab related insights into the IOS and other
networking topics but I am NOT interested in 3 or 4 pages of political
and social comments.
See groups.google.com for an appropriate place to post.
I do not wish to offend you and I see that you have made several
technical contributions to the list this month and I appreciate them.
But how about staying on topic?
IMHO,
Jonathan Hays
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Darby Weaver
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 8:57 AM
To: ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: WAKE UP CALL! You "only have a CCIE" and you want more than
50-60k - Better Read... Re: OT. Any guarantee that the CCIE
Well said...
The fact of the matter is with many larger corporate ISPs going down or
taking large hits and the sheer number of consolidations, it is merely a
numbers game...
Another fact is the sheer number of career-certified and Cisco Academy
Graduates.
The Cisco Academy had over 297,000 students enrolled a few months ago
and more by now.
Now when I was in high school and $3.25 was the minimum wage, things
weren't quite so obvious.
But with that many potential job hires - a simple fact comes to mind:
You do not need a CCIE to get your 1600/1700/2500/2600 connected to the
Internet. Period.
Now of there are 7-8,000+ Active CCIE's; 297,000 Cisco Academy
Graduates, X thousand CCNA's, and X thousand CCNP's, then you will
quickly understand that the demand has diminished.
A lot of the old Microsoft, Novell, Unix Admins are moving over in
herds. Yep, faster than you can wink your eyes.
Remember, the education facilities told them they could make 70,000.00+
and 500,000 - 1,000,000 moved over in just a couple of years or so it
seems. Oh yes, and they had to pass 3-7 exams or so...
Now they are being told they can earn a 6-digit salary if they can spell
Cisco. And it seems they think it can be done with a few months study
and a passing one test and one puny lab.
Well - Wake up call - They can pass this test much like any other. May
take them 7-10 tries or more, but guess what some spent 10k+ to earn
half of the salary of a CCIE. So you better believe they are coming.
In herds.
Some of them will stay, but even if only 10% stay you are sill going to
have 50,000-100,000+ new Cisco Certified Professionals.
Good for Cisco, they sell product. Bad for Consultant or Partner - We
sell time, and that value will be diminished with the sheer onslaught of
new people who are "qualified" to work with Cisco Products. I mean they
did just complete a 5-10 Day Bootcamp and have taken the Lab several
times.
By our own admission, they are now "qualified" to work with the product.
After all the same lab they paid for is the same one we've been training
for, and some of for years.
Now you may argue, that these wannabees may not be as qualified as you
are. I mean you have years and years of experience.
Yep. But you are a CCIE.
Yep. So are they.
And guess what to a simple employer, you are one and the same. Some may
know the difference and may be willing to pay, but you better believe it
will be at a lower rate than in the boom years.
You want to differentiate yourself from the imposter. The fact is you
may well be that imposter.
Remember, this is a study group with 10,000+ members. Guess what - You
are that guy. How can you fault him/her for having the same gleam in
his/her eye that you once had.
Even more shocking, the beauty of Cisco is that we can do just about
everything remotely. So our counterparts in any country can now assume
our roles in our country. They no longer even need an H1-B.
And you better believe they can do it cheaper.
Now evaluate your credentials and remember that your competition is as
well versed in English as you, has an american sales counterpart, and
even holds a Masters Degree or PH.D in Telecommunications or Electrical
Engineering as well as one or more CCIE designations.
Oh yes, and he/she even has the years of expereince in I.T. or
Telecommunications.
This is what you are going to be faced with. You will still be able to
get a job, but it will be at substantially reduced rates. Welcome to
the global economy.
It is a bright new world with many smiling faces.
Did I forget to mention that one such country has almost twice the
population of the U.S or better and some of them (a large number)
currently hold the above qualifications?
Better wake up and stake your claim early, sleepy head.
The days of 125k+ just to install access routers is over. The
competition is coming from your local high schools, colleges, tech
education centers, and even abroad.
It is happening as we speak. Some Call Centers are global in physical
location.
Cisco's very own IP Telephony is making this possible.
So my advice is to continue your formal education, get your certs, and
build rock-solid credentials - You may not get the chance to do so in
the next 3-5 years or so.
----- Original Message -----
From: "yakout esmat" <yesmat@iprimus.com.au>
To: "eric" <namaste@pacbell.net>
Cc: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 5:22 AM
Subject: RE: OT. Any guarantee that the CCIE
> Eric
>
> It is a tough question. And I am sure the responses will vary from one
> to another.
>
> There are few things to consider;
>
> 1) Supply and demand, obviously the demand on IT professionals (CCIE
> or
not)
> is diminishing so quickly as the world market kneels and curls into a
fetal
> position (hope it doesn't go back to the womb)
>
> 2) The real question is, will the market ever pick up? and when? I
> think
it
> will pick up, but not as it was before, not even close. When.....well
> this is the million dollar question, because if it is going to take
> few years
to
> "START" picking up, then every one needs to rethink and revisits their
> strategies (different people have different strategies)
>
> 3) When the market picks up, employers will start employing people
> with experience first and certification second, and these will be
> toooooo many. So if you want to arm yourself with CCIE, gain
> experience here and there
and
> hold your breath, joing the club..I can see you already are a member
> of
Club
> Groupstudy :-))
>
> My personal opinion, don't follow any body's foot steps, just follow
> your dreams regardless. If you like IT and like the challenge of CCIE,
> by all means go for it. It has to pay at the end and will never go to
> waste ever.
>
> Yakout
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: eric [mailto:namaste@pacbell.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 2:27 AM
> To: yakout esmat
> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> Subject: OT. Any guarantee that the CCIE
>
>
> Please excuse my off the subject questions.
> Just wanted to get some input from group members. Will the CCIE Cert.
> get you or me a job in todays market or better yet next years market
> looking at
giving
> myself 6 months (unemployment Benefits ) to get my number.
> I am thinking of going to one of the many schools after my upcoming
layoff;
> are
> they worth the investment or should I try to do it on my own with the
> help of this list and the labs that are out there ?
> I am trying to get a sense of how bad is it out there and will things
turn
> around. I love this field and if it matters I live in the Bay Area and
would
> rather not leave after getting my number but will do what it takes to
> stay in the field.
> Thanks for any input or advice.
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Sat Sep 07 2002 - 19:36:42 GMT-3