From: Jake (jakeczyz@xxxxxxxxx)
Date: Sat Jun 01 2002 - 17:26:27 GMT-3
I tend to agree with Matt, but I think that "networking" has exploded to e
ncompass
so many different technologies and areas of IT, that I challenge anyone to show
me an
"expert in networking." As far a Cisco's layer 1-4 networking, I still think th
e CCIE is
the pinnacle. Obviously, it's not the end of learning, probably only the beginn
ing...
just like they tell you the Black Belt is only the beginning of you martial art
s
training. People who don't like to read or learn, have no business in this indu
stry. It
isn't like the Nobel Prize, but it really does take a lot to be a CCIE; since I
've met
dozens of absolutely incompetent people who hold senior networking positions bu
t couldn't
even pass the IE written (or NP many of them) I have to say that "experience" a
lone is
not a good measure of someone's skills either. However, on the CCIE's relevance
I'll copy
this excerpt from another message I wrote:
"I think 99% of the CCIE's on this group will agree that the CCIE IS fair.
Its lack
of relevance lies only in the fact that it tests the most difficult aspects of
routing
and switching and not the piece of cake "day-to-day" crap you run into supporti
ng a
production environment (which, incidentally, former secretaries are doing at my
[Fortune
500, 16,000 user, 180 Cat6500] company. Any 2 year old can ping, do a 'show por
t,' and
pick up the phone and call TAC as soon as there's the slightest problem."
Having the 4 numbers doesn't mean you know everything, but it does mean yo
u have a
very solid foundation, are willing to learn, and know where to go for answers i
f you need
them. Plus, it says a few things about your character.
As to Emmanuel's interviewer's quote, I know I'm going to get flamed for t
his, but
here goes: Most people I've talked to say that the CCIE has gotten much more di
fficult
since the early days, and because of the certification's reputation, Cisco has
taken many
steps and made many changes to make it more and more challenging. When the firs
t CCIE got
his number (#1024 I believe) in 1992, he was living in a different networking w
orld.
Hell, they didn't even introduce Catalyst switches until a few years later. Bac
k then,
the pool of knowledgeable people was infinitely smaller than it is today, and t
he modern
phenomena of Transcender paper-certification was probably unheard of. The CCIE
was also
the only certification Cisco had. In other words, the material they tested was
material
which the CCNP covers now and which would have been relatively less challanging
to the
pool of candidates today. I could be wrong, but this is how I see it (with an a
dmitted
bias, of course). ;-) Mr. CCIE #3XXX probably DID have a test which was relevan
t to
supporting the simple RIP routers and hubs of 1994 or 5. Show him a scenario wi
th 6
modern routers running: 5 IGP's, BGP, VoIP, ATM, QOS, DLSW+, Translational brid
ging, VLAN
Trunking, ISDN, Multicast, (just for starters) and tell him to build it and mak
e it
converge in 8 hours... and I think he'll show more respect. However, I'll admit
the
market for us has definitely gone down.
IMHO,
Jake
9102
--- Matt Wagner <miguknom@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I think this is pretty clear cut. I will just give my opinion...
>
> CCIE does not mean that you are a networking expert. It does mean that you
> are an expert at configuring the Cisco equipment on the lab and that you are
> probably good at problem solving and thinking fast under pressure. If a
> company needs an expert Cisco configurer, then they will be very interested
> in a CCIE. If they need some indication that a job candidate can work well
> under pressure and has good logical thinking skills, then CCIE is a pretty
> good benchmark.
>
> If they are looking for an Active Directory expert, then CCIE means very
> little by itself. If they are looking for a Unix admin, then CCIE won't
> necessarily represent any value to them. Still, if two Active Directory
> experts apply for the same job and one is a CCIE, then (assuming that they
> can afford it) they will be more impressed by the CCIE (all other things
> remaining equal).
>
> My guess is that a lot of companies place high value on a person's ability
> to configure Cisco routers, switches, firewalls, VPN, IDS, etc. and that
> those companies will pay more for or give preference to a CCIE. It would be
> wise to have some other skills, such as security, Win2K networking, or Unix
> so that you can get opportunities that are not completely Cisco-centric.
>
> I just don't think this issue is really much of an issue (even though it
> comes up often here). If someone is a CCIE with no production network
> experience, then that is better than being a non-CCIE with no production
> network knowledge. If the same person imagines that the 4-digit number
> means the quest for knowledge is over, then the job scene will be
> significantly more limited. If I had my CCIE with no production network
> experience and someone talked smack at me for it, I would go get a job
> making decent money and start learning some other stuff and my critics could
> pound sand.
>
> Just my 0010 cents.
>
> Matt
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: Chris Trevino <ctrevino@inflow.com>
> Reply-To: Chris Trevino <ctrevino@inflow.com>
> To: "'Emmanuel Oppong'" <e-oppong@attbi.com>, "Ccielab@Groupstudy.
> Com" <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> Subject: RE: CCIE: FOOD FOR THOUGHT
> Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 11:43:24 -0600
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>
> I recently had the same experience when interviewing for a consultant
> position. I indicated that I have my lab date scheduled for less than 2
> months away and that I would like to get the certification to help obtain
> more consulting jobs. The hiring manager said that he had 3 CCIE's on staff
> and that it really wasn't a big deal anymore for the customers "because
> there are alot more CCIE's out there now then before."
>
> My take on the whole thing is that, to be a Senior level Cisco Engineer the
> CCIE helps. I also personally know 2 guys who have less then 2 years
> experience total in networking and are CCIE's. I wouldn't trust either of
> them with a large network design, but they sure know alot about passing the
> lab. Just my opinion.
>
> Christopher Trevino
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Emmanuel Oppong [mailto:e-oppong@attbi.com]
> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 9:55 AM
> To: Ccielab@Groupstudy. Com
> Subject: CCIE: FOOD FOR THOUGHT
>
>
> I interviewed recently for a sr. networking position and mentioned to the
> interviewing manager, in passing, that I will be taking my ccie lab soon.
> His response got me thinking and wondered what your thoughts are. This is
> exacltly his response:
>
> "Guys these days pass ccie depending on what test they get. ccie is
> rediculous these days since the scenarios and questions asked are non-real
> life and no good practicing engineer will ever use the methods stipulated in
> the test" And then he goes on to say: "If you tune you ears to
> groupstudy.com and pay attention to some of the rediculous questions and
> scenarios being posed, then maybe you have a chance of passing". Guess
> what? This guy is a ccie himself with a number in the 3000s. By the way, I
> didn't piss him off for him to say these things, he actually was very
> impressed with my years of experience and educational background.
>
> It has gotten me thinking and quite frustrated at the thought of this
> certification being branded as "ridiculous" by the same employers we are
> trying to prove that we have top notch certification.
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Tue Jul 02 2002 - 08:12:20 GMT-3