From: Ludwig Morales (lud.morales@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
Date: Sun May 05 2002 - 15:20:32 GMT-3
Please give it a rest will ya'
I was one of the few to share your point of view, but this discussion is
making me and i think everybody else sick, maybe you'd like to create a
group just to discuss this uhh?
How about posting some CCIE related issue?
Regards,
Ludwig
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Rosenthal" <perosenthal@hotmail.com>
To: "Wayne Lawson" <Wayne@IPexpert.NET>; "Craig Columbus"
<Craig.Columbus@columbusconsulting.com>; <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
Cc: <hcb@gettcomm.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 11:33 AM
Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> That's interesting. I thought your banner was still on the GS website. I
> didn't think that you would pay for "endorsements" but having banners
helps
> I'm sure. Anyway, thank you for clearing that up.
>
> I'm glad that someone agrees that this should be on the commercial list as
> Howard has already specifically stated that he would like people to use
his
> racks to do these labs. That sounds pretty commercial to me. But, I've
> noticed that he prefers to dodge the issues and spin his response instead
of
> answering them straight on. He'd probably make a pretty good politician.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Wayne Lawson" <Wayne@IPexpert.NET>
> To: "Peter Rosenthal" <perosenthal@hotmail.com>; "Craig Columbus"
> <Craig.Columbus@columbusconsulting.com>; <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> Cc: <hcb@gettcomm.com>
> Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 10:28 AM
> Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
>
>
> > Peter,
> >
> > I understand and can see your point - but to clear something up -
> > IPexpert, Inc is NOT
> > paying Groupstudy a penny. In the past, we have paid for banner
> > advertisement as did
> > or does many other vendors). We're not paying Howard or Groupstudy for
> any
> > posts or
> > endorsements on this list. And, I do agree with you - this post should
> > have been started
> > on the commercial list.
> >
> > - Wayne
> >
> > Wayne Lawson
> > CCIE # 5244
> > Founder & CEO - IPexpert, Inc.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Peter Rosenthal" <perosenthal@hotmail.com>
> > To: "Craig Columbus" <Craig.Columbus@columbusconsulting.com>;
> > <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > Cc: <hcb@gettcomm.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 12:48 PM
> > Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> >
> >
> > > I've been a lurker for a LONG time. I have no problem at all with
> Howard
> > > making money or even promoting his stuff on this list. However, there
> are
> > > two issues.
> > >
> > > 1) Howard is not even a CCIE and therefore is no one to tell me or
> anyone
> > > else how to prepare. If he hasn't taken it he doesn't know what is
> > > required. If he does know what is required that means one of his
> > co-workers
> > > at Certification Zone told him very detailed info about the test.
That
> > > would be my guess but I wouldn't know for sure. Even so, if he hasn't
> > > passed the lab he shouldn't be writing material. Would you go to med
> > school
> > > and let someone that isn't a doctor try and teach you surgery? I sure
> as
> > > hell wouldn't.
> > >
> > > 2) A new list has been created for vendors. Why is Howard not being
> > > restricted to posting his spam on that list? Well it's because of
$$$.
> I
> > > used to think this list was intended to be vendor independent and fair
> for
> > > everyone. But, now I found out that they selectively filter posts
from
> > > people that advocate their competitors. I don't like favoritism on
> lists
> > > such as this especially when people are buying that favoritism. If
you
> > > don't think Groupstudy is getting paid by ipexpert, hello cumputers,
> > > getlabs, and certification zone then you should ask them. I'd be
> curious
> > > if they lie about it or are misleading in any way. If Howard wants to
> > post
> > > this stuff on the vendor lab and they stop filtering their competitors
I
> > > wouldn't complain a bit. I think this is a good place for people to
> > > advertise their products or services. But, you shouldn't have to pay
GS
> > to
> > > do so.
> > >
> > > You should also realize that Howard was always in this for the money.
> > > Before his new company he still worked for CZ which sells low to mid
> level
> > > training materials. He profited then as he does now.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Craig Columbus" <Craig.Columbus@columbusconsulting.com>
> > > To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > > Cc: <hcb@gettcomm.com>; <perosenthal@hotmail.com>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 12:23 PM
> > > Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> > >
> > >
> > > > Peter,
> > > >
> > > > How long have you been subscribing to this list? Howard was a
> > meaningful
> > > > contributor long before his online rack venture.
> > > > But, playing devil's advocate, let's say that you're right. Let's
say
> > > that
> > > > Howard only contributes to draw people to his for-profit ventures.
> > > > What's wrong with that? He contributes a VAST amount of information
> for
> > > > free everyday. If it leads to people buying his books or renting
time
> > on
> > > > his racks, more power to him. I don't know if you're in the USA or
> > > another
> > > > country, but capitalism is what makes the USA great. If it weren't
> for
> > > > capitalism, there'd be no Cisco. They didn't start the company for
a
> > love
> > > > of networking. Cisco, and every other for-profit venture, was
started
> > > > because the founders had enough knowledge to build a product that
they
> > > > thought people would want to buy. They were in it for the MONEY.
> > > > So, even if Howard's contributions to the list were purely motivated
> by
> > > > profit, it still wouldn't change the fact that he contributes to the
> > > > knowledge of thousands of list members each and every day. If he
> makes
> > a
> > > > billion dollars for doing so, I'll be the first to congratulate him
on
> > his
> > > > success.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Craig
> > > >
> > > > At 12:11 PM 5/1/2002 -0400, you wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >His contributions are purely for monetary purposes. I know that
most
> > > people
> > > > >on this list clearly see that. It's all business not out of the
> > kindness
> > > of
> > > > >his heart. He contributes hoping you'll be so impressed that
you'll
> > buy
> > > > >labs from his partners and rent rack time from his company.
Surely
> > > you're
> > > > >not this clueless and I know most people on this list are not
fooled.
> > > > >
> > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > >From: "Craig Columbus" <Craig.Columbus@columbusconsulting.com>
> > > > >To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > > > >Cc: <hcb@gettcomm.com>; <perosenthal@hotmail.com>
> > > > >Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 11:43 AM
> > > > >Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > I can't tell if I'm reading poor sarcasm or pitiful ignorance.
> > > > > > I surely hope it's an attempt at sarcasm....
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Howard contributes more meaningful commentary to this list per
day
> > > than
> > > > > > most could contribute in a year. I, for one, appreciate that he
> > takes
> > > the
> > > > > > time out of his schedule to participate. I'm sure most others
> feel
> > > the
> > > > > > same way.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks Howard.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At 11:13 AM 5/1/2002 -0400, you wrote:
> > > > > > >Howard just likes to impress people with all of his supposed
> > > "contacts"
> > > > >and
> > > > > > >his smoke screen of knowledge. The guy is obviously a bookworm
> and
> > > has
> > > > > > >never worked on a real network. He always talks about things
he
> > has
> > > > > > >"written" and not work he's actually done. Now I'm sure Howard
> > will
> > > > >respond
> > > > > > >with his classic list of places he's consulted for. But, most
of
> > us
> > > know
> > > > > > >he's full of shit. Apparently Howard feels that his name
carries
> > > some
> > > > > > >weight like Doyle (excuse me while I die laughing). Hopefully
> most
> > > of us
> > > > > > >see him for what he is. He uses this list as spam and gets
away
> > with
> > > it
> > > > > > >cause Paul is being paid advertising $$$ from a few vendors
that
> > > Howard
> > > > >is
> > > > > > >affiliated with. His book is definitely worthless and
> thankfully
> > I
> > > > >looked
> > > > > > >through it before buying it. Another bookworm that frequents
> this
> > > list
> > > > >has
> > > > > > >a crap design book out too. I used it to help get the fire
going
> > in
> > > my
> > > > > > >fireplace. The funniest part is she reviewed his book on
Amazon!
> > I
> > > > >wonder
> > > > > > >how many of Howard's other buddies and co-workers helped
promote
> > this
> > > > >crap.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > >From: "Ludwig A. Morales" <morales_l@hotmail.com>
> > > > > > >To: "Howard C. Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com>
> > > > > > >Cc: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > > > > > >Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 7:59 AM
> > > > > > >Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > listen, unlike the rest of the people here I couldn't care
> less
> > > that
> > > > >you
> > > > > > > > find my comment useful or not, trashing people is usually a
> way
> > to
> > > > >make
> > > > > > >you
> > > > > > > > feel better about yourself. I read your Designing Routing
and
> > > > >switching
> > > > > > > > architecture a few days ago, didn't find it that useful, and
> you
> > > > >didn't
> > > > > > >see
> > > > > > > > me here trashing your book right? because that was just my
> > point
> > > of
> > > > >view.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > My good old daddy use to say:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There's not much greatness in holding honors, greatness
comes
> > from
> > > > > > >deserving
> > > > > > > > them"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And those with CCIE (either hi or low numbers deserve to be
> > CCIE,
> > > > >maybe
> > > > > > > > except for those that found their number in a corn flake
box,
> > > anyone?)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sure JEFF (so you now him!!, great can you get me an
> autograph
> > > :P )
> > > > >was
> > > > > > >not
> > > > > > > > the first one to write about the Lollipop-Shape Sequence
> number
> > > space,
> > > > >now
> > > > > > > > when someone ask me from who did I learn about that, his
> getting
> > > the
> > > > > > >credit
> > > > > > > > because that's the book I've read, my comment was simply to
> > > > >demonstrate
> > > > > > >that
> > > > > > > > many "experience" networkers don't event open a book,
"heckk
> > what
> > > do
> > > > > > >need
> > > > > > > > a book for or a cert as well I've been troubleshooting for X
> > year"
> > > > >(yeahh
> > > > > > > > stupid but maybe you've been doing it the wrong way).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > A Final comment, I would relay more on a rookie doctor that
> just
> > > > >graduated
> > > > > > > > from medical school that from someone that just have
> > "experience"
> > > in a
> > > > > > > > surgery room and haven't been properly trained.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > PS. Once again experience has great weight (of course I put
my
> 6
> > > years
> > > > >in
> > > > > > >my
> > > > > > > > resume, though I've only been working with Cisco for 2
years,
> do
> > > my 6
> > > > > > >years
> > > > > > > > of experience means more to someone than Munib 2 Years with
a
> > > CCIE, I
> > > > > > >don't
> > > > > > > > think so) I just see it wrong to take credit from the guys
> that
> > > > >recently
> > > > > > > > pass the exam, what do you feel threaten!!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com>
> > > > > > > > To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 2:21 AM
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > At 9:14 PM -0400 4/30/02, Ludwig Morales wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >Cool dude, this is the logest tread i've seem im this
> mailing
> > > > >list's
> > > > > > > > history
> > > > > > > > > >without using "NDA" .
> > > > > > > > > >I was thinking to let it slide myself but naaaa.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >First of all the fact that he took less time than you
could
> > > provee
> > > > >that
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > >exam is easier now or that he's more discipline and more
> > > inteligent
> > > > > > >than
> > > > > > > > > >you, that depends on your perspective and the choise that
> > less
> > > > >ofends
> > > > > > > > you.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >Now to the CCIE Vs. experince stuff, i may be wrong but
i
> > > think
> > > > >you
> > > > > > >are
> > > > > > > > > >comparing apples and oranges, i think i told this story
> > before
> > > but
> > > > >well
> > > > > > > > what
> > > > > > > > > >the heck..
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Be careful about comparing anything to apples or you may
> > > irritate
> > > > > > > > > Priscilla. :-)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >in the first CCIE bootcamp i took our instructor
conducted
> an
> > > small
> > > > > > > > survey
> > > > > > > > > >to measure the level of all atendees by making a list of
> the
> > > > > > >tecnologies
> > > > > > > > he
> > > > > > > > > >was about to explain by drawing two columns on a sheet,
one
> > was
> > > > >your
> > > > > > > > > >teorical experience and one was your practical experience
> > > regardig
> > > > >each
> > > > > > > > > >technology, one of the atendees sheets came to he's
> atention
> > > when
> > > > >he
> > > > > > >saw
> > > > > > > > > >that unlike all the rest of us this dude had more
practical
> > > > >experience
> > > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > >theory, when he asked how come his answer was that he was
> > able
> > > to
> > > > > > > > configure
> > > > > > > > > >and troubleshoot up to a point but for him sometimes the
> > router
> > > was
> > > > > > >like
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > >black box of a plane, he didn't know what the hell was
> inside
> > > of
> > > > >it.
> > > > > > > > when
> > > > > > > > > >the TAC told him to change some parameter he simply did
it
> > and
> > > did
> > > > >not
> > > > > > > > > >understand what was the purpose (this dude has been
working
> > > with
> > > > >Cisco
> > > > > > > > for 4
> > > > > > > > > >years) so you see, CUIE does give you something, the
> > knowledge
> > > of
> > > > >how
> > > > > > > > each
> > > > > > > > > >thing works, I dare anyone with more the 5 years of
> > experience
> > > but
> > > > >with
> > > > > > > > > >never laying a hand on Doyle's to explain to me how igrp
> > > calculate
> > > > >it's
> > > > > > > > > >metric (remember the k values?) or the Lollipop-Shape
> > Sequence
> > > > >number
> > > > > > > > space.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > :-) But how did JEFF learn it? (Actually, I asked him,
and
> he
> > > got
> > > > > > > > > some informationr released, by Dino Farinacci IIRC). The
> > > lollipop
> > > > > > > > > sequence came from Radia Perlman (I was the reviewer of
> Jeff's
> > > OSPF
> > > > > > > > > chapter), and I believe she and/or the standard is
credited.
> > > The
> > > > > > > > > best writeup of the lollipop is in her Interconnections
> > book --
> > > > > > > > > better, I think, than John Moy's.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >Well anyway for those of you in the track dont let a
coment
> > > like
> > > > >this
> > > > > > > > > >disapoint you, he's not right, he's not wrong that's just
> his
> > > point
> > > > >of
> > > > > > > > view
> > > > > > > > > >and you should not be worried about it (unless Robert is
> your
> > > boss,
> > > > > > > > jejejje)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >good luck to us, work hard and congratulate those who
have
> > > achive
> > > > >their
> > > > > > > > goal
> > > > > > > > > >that helps us all aswell.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >OH and one last question, do you wake up in the morning
and
> > > have
> > > > >all
> > > > > > >the
> > > > > > > > > >kwoledge to pass a CCIE exam? No? Then how do you get
> this
> > > > >kwoledge?
> > > > > > > > > >Uhhhhh trough experience?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Take a look at a picture of Scott Bradner sometime; he has
a
> > > slight
> > > > > > > > > resemblance to Santa Claus. Vint Cerf is no spring
chicken.
> > They
> > > > > > > > > still study.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >PS, been working in IT for 6 years now (thank God i'll be
a
> > > CCIE
> > > > >that
> > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > >been pushing and pulling routers for 6 years)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > let's see...I first started programming in 1966 or 7 (it
> > blurs)
> > > and
> > > > > > > > > actually put together my 1st network in 1970. Hmmm...this
> > week,
> > > I've
> > > > > > > > > learned some things about the application of control
theory
> to
> > > > > > > > > routing protocols, about measurement timing issues in OSPF
> > > > > > > > > performance measurement, in some legal requirements for
> crypto
> > > in
> > > > > > > > > medical networks, and have been Perl programming since
last
> > > week!
> > > > > > > > >
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Thu Jun 13 2002 - 10:58:50 GMT-3