From: Wayne Lawson (Wayne@xxxxxxxxxxxx)
Date: Thu May 02 2002 - 11:28:42 GMT-3
Peter,
I understand and can see your point - but to clear something up -
IPexpert, Inc is NOT
paying Groupstudy a penny. In the past, we have paid for banner
advertisement as did
or does many other vendors). We're not paying Howard or Groupstudy for any
posts or
endorsements on this list. And, I do agree with you - this post should
have been started
on the commercial list.
- Wayne
Wayne Lawson
CCIE # 5244
Founder & CEO - IPexpert, Inc.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Rosenthal" <perosenthal@hotmail.com>
To: "Craig Columbus" <Craig.Columbus@columbusconsulting.com>;
<ccielab@groupstudy.com>
Cc: <hcb@gettcomm.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> I've been a lurker for a LONG time. I have no problem at all with Howard
> making money or even promoting his stuff on this list. However, there are
> two issues.
>
> 1) Howard is not even a CCIE and therefore is no one to tell me or anyone
> else how to prepare. If he hasn't taken it he doesn't know what is
> required. If he does know what is required that means one of his
co-workers
> at Certification Zone told him very detailed info about the test. That
> would be my guess but I wouldn't know for sure. Even so, if he hasn't
> passed the lab he shouldn't be writing material. Would you go to med
school
> and let someone that isn't a doctor try and teach you surgery? I sure as
> hell wouldn't.
>
> 2) A new list has been created for vendors. Why is Howard not being
> restricted to posting his spam on that list? Well it's because of $$$. I
> used to think this list was intended to be vendor independent and fair for
> everyone. But, now I found out that they selectively filter posts from
> people that advocate their competitors. I don't like favoritism on lists
> such as this especially when people are buying that favoritism. If you
> don't think Groupstudy is getting paid by ipexpert, hello cumputers,
> getlabs, and certification zone then you should ask them. I'd be curious
> if they lie about it or are misleading in any way. If Howard wants to
post
> this stuff on the vendor lab and they stop filtering their competitors I
> wouldn't complain a bit. I think this is a good place for people to
> advertise their products or services. But, you shouldn't have to pay GS
to
> do so.
>
> You should also realize that Howard was always in this for the money.
> Before his new company he still worked for CZ which sells low to mid level
> training materials. He profited then as he does now.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Craig Columbus" <Craig.Columbus@columbusconsulting.com>
> To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> Cc: <hcb@gettcomm.com>; <perosenthal@hotmail.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 12:23 PM
> Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
>
>
> > Peter,
> >
> > How long have you been subscribing to this list? Howard was a
meaningful
> > contributor long before his online rack venture.
> > But, playing devil's advocate, let's say that you're right. Let's say
> that
> > Howard only contributes to draw people to his for-profit ventures.
> > What's wrong with that? He contributes a VAST amount of information for
> > free everyday. If it leads to people buying his books or renting time
on
> > his racks, more power to him. I don't know if you're in the USA or
> another
> > country, but capitalism is what makes the USA great. If it weren't for
> > capitalism, there'd be no Cisco. They didn't start the company for a
love
> > of networking. Cisco, and every other for-profit venture, was started
> > because the founders had enough knowledge to build a product that they
> > thought people would want to buy. They were in it for the MONEY.
> > So, even if Howard's contributions to the list were purely motivated by
> > profit, it still wouldn't change the fact that he contributes to the
> > knowledge of thousands of list members each and every day. If he makes
a
> > billion dollars for doing so, I'll be the first to congratulate him on
his
> > success.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Craig
> >
> > At 12:11 PM 5/1/2002 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> > >His contributions are purely for monetary purposes. I know that most
> people
> > >on this list clearly see that. It's all business not out of the
kindness
> of
> > >his heart. He contributes hoping you'll be so impressed that you'll
buy
> > >labs from his partners and rent rack time from his company. Surely
> you're
> > >not this clueless and I know most people on this list are not fooled.
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Craig Columbus" <Craig.Columbus@columbusconsulting.com>
> > >To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > >Cc: <hcb@gettcomm.com>; <perosenthal@hotmail.com>
> > >Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 11:43 AM
> > >Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> > >
> > >
> > > > I can't tell if I'm reading poor sarcasm or pitiful ignorance.
> > > > I surely hope it's an attempt at sarcasm....
> > > >
> > > > Howard contributes more meaningful commentary to this list per day
> than
> > > > most could contribute in a year. I, for one, appreciate that he
takes
> the
> > > > time out of his schedule to participate. I'm sure most others feel
> the
> > > > same way.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks Howard.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > At 11:13 AM 5/1/2002 -0400, you wrote:
> > > > >Howard just likes to impress people with all of his supposed
> "contacts"
> > >and
> > > > >his smoke screen of knowledge. The guy is obviously a bookworm and
> has
> > > > >never worked on a real network. He always talks about things he
has
> > > > >"written" and not work he's actually done. Now I'm sure Howard
will
> > >respond
> > > > >with his classic list of places he's consulted for. But, most of
us
> know
> > > > >he's full of shit. Apparently Howard feels that his name carries
> some
> > > > >weight like Doyle (excuse me while I die laughing). Hopefully most
> of us
> > > > >see him for what he is. He uses this list as spam and gets away
with
> it
> > > > >cause Paul is being paid advertising $$$ from a few vendors that
> Howard
> > >is
> > > > >affiliated with. His book is definitely worthless and thankfully
I
> > >looked
> > > > >through it before buying it. Another bookworm that frequents this
> list
> > >has
> > > > >a crap design book out too. I used it to help get the fire going
in
> my
> > > > >fireplace. The funniest part is she reviewed his book on Amazon!
I
> > >wonder
> > > > >how many of Howard's other buddies and co-workers helped promote
this
> > >crap.
> > > > >
> > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > >From: "Ludwig A. Morales" <morales_l@hotmail.com>
> > > > >To: "Howard C. Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com>
> > > > >Cc: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > > > >Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 7:59 AM
> > > > >Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > listen, unlike the rest of the people here I couldn't care less
> that
> > >you
> > > > > > find my comment useful or not, trashing people is usually a way
to
> > >make
> > > > >you
> > > > > > feel better about yourself. I read your Designing Routing and
> > >switching
> > > > > > architecture a few days ago, didn't find it that useful, and you
> > >didn't
> > > > >see
> > > > > > me here trashing your book right? because that was just my
point
> of
> > >view.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My good old daddy use to say:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There's not much greatness in holding honors, greatness comes
from
> > > > >deserving
> > > > > > them"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And those with CCIE (either hi or low numbers deserve to be
CCIE,
> > >maybe
> > > > > > except for those that found their number in a corn flake box,
> anyone?)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sure JEFF (so you now him!!, great can you get me an autograph
> :P )
> > >was
> > > > >not
> > > > > > the first one to write about the Lollipop-Shape Sequence number
> space,
> > >now
> > > > > > when someone ask me from who did I learn about that, his getting
> the
> > > > >credit
> > > > > > because that's the book I've read, my comment was simply to
> > >demonstrate
> > > > >that
> > > > > > many "experience" networkers don't event open a book, "heckk
what
> do
> > > > >need
> > > > > > a book for or a cert as well I've been troubleshooting for X
year"
> > >(yeahh
> > > > > > stupid but maybe you've been doing it the wrong way).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A Final comment, I would relay more on a rookie doctor that just
> > >graduated
> > > > > > from medical school that from someone that just have
"experience"
> in a
> > > > > > surgery room and haven't been properly trained.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > PS. Once again experience has great weight (of course I put my 6
> years
> > >in
> > > > >my
> > > > > > resume, though I've only been working with Cisco for 2 years, do
> my 6
> > > > >years
> > > > > > of experience means more to someone than Munib 2 Years with a
> CCIE, I
> > > > >don't
> > > > > > think so) I just see it wrong to take credit from the guys that
> > >recently
> > > > > > pass the exam, what do you feel threaten!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Howard C. Berkowitz" <hcb@gettcomm.com>
> > > > > > To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 2:21 AM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > At 9:14 PM -0400 4/30/02, Ludwig Morales wrote:
> > > > > > > >Cool dude, this is the logest tread i've seem im this mailing
> > >list's
> > > > > > history
> > > > > > > >without using "NDA" .
> > > > > > > >I was thinking to let it slide myself but naaaa.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >First of all the fact that he took less time than you could
> provee
> > >that
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >exam is easier now or that he's more discipline and more
> inteligent
> > > > >than
> > > > > > > >you, that depends on your perspective and the choise that
less
> > >ofends
> > > > > > you.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Now to the CCIE Vs. experince stuff, i may be wrong but i
> think
> > >you
> > > > >are
> > > > > > > >comparing apples and oranges, i think i told this story
before
> but
> > >well
> > > > > > what
> > > > > > > >the heck..
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Be careful about comparing anything to apples or you may
> irritate
> > > > > > > Priscilla. :-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >in the first CCIE bootcamp i took our instructor conducted an
> small
> > > > > > survey
> > > > > > > >to measure the level of all atendees by making a list of the
> > > > >tecnologies
> > > > > > he
> > > > > > > >was about to explain by drawing two columns on a sheet, one
was
> > >your
> > > > > > > >teorical experience and one was your practical experience
> regardig
> > >each
> > > > > > > >technology, one of the atendees sheets came to he's atention
> when
> > >he
> > > > >saw
> > > > > > > >that unlike all the rest of us this dude had more practical
> > >experience
> > > > > > than
> > > > > > > >theory, when he asked how come his answer was that he was
able
> to
> > > > > > configure
> > > > > > > >and troubleshoot up to a point but for him sometimes the
router
> was
> > > > >like
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >black box of a plane, he didn't know what the hell was inside
> of
> > >it.
> > > > > > when
> > > > > > > >the TAC told him to change some parameter he simply did it
and
> did
> > >not
> > > > > > > >understand what was the purpose (this dude has been working
> with
> > >Cisco
> > > > > > for 4
> > > > > > > >years) so you see, CUIE does give you something, the
knowledge
> of
> > >how
> > > > > > each
> > > > > > > >thing works, I dare anyone with more the 5 years of
experience
> but
> > >with
> > > > > > > >never laying a hand on Doyle's to explain to me how igrp
> calculate
> > >it's
> > > > > > > >metric (remember the k values?) or the Lollipop-Shape
Sequence
> > >number
> > > > > > space.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > :-) But how did JEFF learn it? (Actually, I asked him, and he
> got
> > > > > > > some informationr released, by Dino Farinacci IIRC). The
> lollipop
> > > > > > > sequence came from Radia Perlman (I was the reviewer of Jeff's
> OSPF
> > > > > > > chapter), and I believe she and/or the standard is credited.
> The
> > > > > > > best writeup of the lollipop is in her Interconnections
book --
> > > > > > > better, I think, than John Moy's.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Well anyway for those of you in the track dont let a coment
> like
> > >this
> > > > > > > >disapoint you, he's not right, he's not wrong that's just his
> point
> > >of
> > > > > > view
> > > > > > > >and you should not be worried about it (unless Robert is your
> boss,
> > > > > > jejejje)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >good luck to us, work hard and congratulate those who have
> achive
> > >their
> > > > > > goal
> > > > > > > >that helps us all aswell.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >OH and one last question, do you wake up in the morning and
> have
> > >all
> > > > >the
> > > > > > > >kwoledge to pass a CCIE exam? No? Then how do you get this
> > >kwoledge?
> > > > > > > >Uhhhhh trough experience?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Take a look at a picture of Scott Bradner sometime; he has a
> slight
> > > > > > > resemblance to Santa Claus. Vint Cerf is no spring chicken.
They
> > > > > > > still study.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >PS, been working in IT for 6 years now (thank God i'll be a
> CCIE
> > >that
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > >been pushing and pulling routers for 6 years)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > let's see...I first started programming in 1966 or 7 (it
blurs)
> and
> > > > > > > actually put together my 1st network in 1970. Hmmm...this
week,
> I've
> > > > > > > learned some things about the application of control theory to
> > > > > > > routing protocols, about measurement timing issues in OSPF
> > > > > > > performance measurement, in some legal requirements for crypto
> in
> > > > > > > medical networks, and have been Perl programming since last
> week!
> > > > > > >
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Thu Jun 13 2002 - 10:58:49 GMT-3