From: yakout esmat (yesmat@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
Date: Wed May 01 2002 - 04:48:03 GMT-3
Peter,
I don't know what's your problem, obviously you have a big problem.
You are already on the list obviously, so whether you are on it because you
are trying for your CCIE cert (will not say studying because you have your
own "BIG NETWORK" and above stdying) or you are just on the list to put
people down...take your pick.
If you are trying for your CCIE just like every body else with experience or
without (best of luck-I don't really mean it-), and at the same time putting
people who pass it down....unbelievable.
I am in this industry for many years and have seen many people like you, who
claim that they have many years of experience and not bother trying for
their CCIE, and take every chance they get to critisize people who got their
number and have less number of years under their belt. I am sure that every
one in the industry have seen many people like that.
Sorry Peter...have to go now to plug a couple of cables before takeing my
exam...
Ya
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com]On Behalf Of
Peter Rosenthal
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 10:00 AM
To: ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
Gee that's a tough choice. Please. The question is would you choose a guy
with 3 or 4 years of Cisco experience over a lab rat with 18 months? I'll
take the guy with 3-4 years as long as it was doing real networking over the
lab rat Jr CCIE any day. If I did hire the Jr. CCIE he would be doing IOS
upgrades and stuff til he got some REAL experience. If he is that smart he
can work his way up quicker than others. Everyone should have to work their
way up. I'm tired of the attitude that people think they can jump right to
the top. It's sickening especially to those of us that did put our time in.
I'm sorry but the process of attaining the CCIE is NOT grueling at all if
you have a few years of REAL experience. It takes a couple months of
preparation and study and it does demonstrate SOME level of commitment and
hard work. But given the resources available it's an average
accomplishment. Should you still be proud of it? Of course. Should you
think you are a God or even particularly special? Of course not. I
certainly would not put it in the class of a Doctor or Lawyer as some of
these CCIE's like to think of themselves. I've noticed only the 9000+ guys
seem to be standing up for this cert so much. I completely understand as
the egos are still high. Wait a few months. It will wear off and you'll
realize it was not that special especially when 1000 people pass a couple
months after you did.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Antonio" <twinturbos@sympatico.ca>
To: "Peter Rosenthal" <perosenthal@hotmail.com>; "Mingzhou Nie"
<mnie@yahoo.com>; "Sean Wu" <vpivci@yahoo.com>; "thomas larus"
<tlarus@mwc.edu>; <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 6:03 PM
Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> Well. If it's a decision to choose between a CCIE with 3 years experience
> and a non-CCIE with 3 years experience I will choose a CCIE. Everyone
knows
> the USA and Canada, of which I've worked in both. are BIG on certs. But I
> won't choose a CCIE because he/she is a CCIE but because the CCIE has gone
> through the gruelling process to pass the CCIE. And that in itself takes
> smarts, patience and dedication; all of which are the quite admirable
traits
> I am looking for.
>
> Technical Manager; CNR
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Rosenthal" <perosenthal@hotmail.com>
> To: "Mingzhou Nie" <mnie@yahoo.com>; "Sean Wu" <vpivci@yahoo.com>; "thomas
> larus" <tlarus@mwc.edu>; <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 4:28 PM
> Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
>
>
> > So you're saying that QoS, Voice, etc is harder than Appletalk, DecNet,
> ATM
> > LANE, and other topics that have been removed? Your argument is quite
> > flawed. Newer CCIE's generally have more relavent "lab" knowledge
because
> > older technologies have since been replaced. But back in 96 or 97 you
> > didn't hear about some secretary becoming a CCIE after only 18 months of
> > "experience." That's because back then there wasn't all the available
> > training, books, bootcamps, NDA violations galore on lists like this,
etc.
> > Back then people had to rely on real EXPERIENCE. We can argue this all
> day.
> > The fact remains that the average new CCIE has FAR less REAL experience
> than
> > the older ones.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mingzhou Nie" <mnie@yahoo.com>
> > To: "Sean Wu" <vpivci@yahoo.com>; "'Peter Rosenthal'"
> > <perosenthal@hotmail.com>; "thomas larus" <tlarus@mwc.edu>;
> > <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 4:20 PM
> > Subject: RE: CCIE #9240
> >
> >
> > > I don't agree, Sean. Do you know what had been tested in 1996/7.
> > > There's no voice, not Qos, no new techs that has since been added. I
> > > won't ever thing earlier CCIEs are better technically.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Sean Wu <vpivci@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > Peter, I agree with you in that experience is important to this
> > > > field,
> > > > and most network managers tend to think in the same way. But what
> > > > about
> > > > the quality of experience, in my mind, 2 years' experience with
> > > > intensive cisco hands-on is much more valuable than 5 years' first
> > > > level
> > > > network support.
> > > >
> > > > Also it is natural to see devaluation of CCIE cert these days. The
> > > > devaluation is not only about the certification, it is about the
> > > > career.
> > > > The career to be a network administrator, no matter how senior you
> > > > are,
> > > > isn't exicting at all. Following others' tail all my life will drive
> > > > me
> > > > crazy. But what else can I do as a network administrator? Nothing.
> > > >
> > > > I respect those CCIEs with small numbers, because they can get it
> > > > QUICK
> > > > and without much help from bootcamps. Those smart people already got
> > > > most out of their certs, and moved on to other area before it cools
> > > > down
> > > > completely.
> > > >
> > > > So what is next HOT field? Maybe "DNA Certified Bio-Tech Expert"?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Peter Rosenthal [mailto:perosenthal@hotmail.com]
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 2:10 PM
> > > > To: thomas larus; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > > > Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I see your point, but you are greatly exagerrating what I am saying.
> > > > Sure
> > > > he would be allowed in my data center. But, only under close
> > > > supervision as
> > > > an apprentice. He certainly would not have uncontrolled access and
> > > > that
> > > > is
> > > > what I meant. I would not require someone to spend years doing
> > > > cabling.
> > > > I
> > > > do not even know what his prior experience is. It would make a HUGE
> > > > difference if he spent the last 10 years doing Unix and NT
> > > > administration at
> > > > a high level or any IT job for that matter. In that case then sure
> > > > he
> > > > would
> > > > be allowed to work on the network with a lot less supervision. But,
> > > > if
> > > > he's
> > > > a 22 yr old that just graduated college and decided to become a CCIE
> > > > a
> > > > year
> > > > later then he's still a lab rat that needs to put in his time. Even
> > > > Cisco
> > > > recommends a minimum of 2 years experience prior to taking the lab.
> > > > Personally, I think someone should have at least 3-4 years of Cisco
> > > > experience. Clearly the number of people passing with less than 2
> > > > years
> > > > experience is growing by the day and I'm sure that trend will
> > > > continue
> > > > until
> > > > it's something that high school kids start obtaining.
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "thomas larus" <tlarus@mwc.edu>
> > > > To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>; <perosenthal@hotmail.com>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 12:07 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "However, I know that no "Junior CCIE" or lab rat with a few months
> > > > experience is even going to get a badge to get in my data center let
> > > > alone
> > > > be responsible for one of my networks."
> > > > <p>
> > > > Of course you should not make someone who is just really, really
good
> > > > at
> > > > learning this material the chief of your entire network, but you
> > > > would
> > > > not
> > > > even give him a badge to get into your data center to apprentice as
a
> > > > junior
> > > > network engineer. That's just plain offensive. No I guess he needs
> > > > to
> > > > pay
> > > > his dues. He needs to avoid getting his CCIE until he has spent the
> > > > requisite 4 years doing physical wiring, changing out the backup
> > > > tapes,
> > > > ghosting PCs. Then, you will let him get his CCNA and work for
> > > > another
> > > > four years doing whatever you consider appropriate CCNA-level work.
> > > > Then,
> > > > after eight years, you would permit him to start studying for the
> > > > CCIE,
> > > > I
> > > > guess.
> > > >
> > > > I really admire the folks who learned their networking by many
> > > > years
> > > > of
> > > > hard work in, say the military, doing everything from running wire,
> > > > programming, setting up radios to making the ATM network run right.
> > > > This,
> > > > in my view, is an optimal way to build a networking career. Many of
> > > > these
> > > > people were underpaid for many years, and it is beautiful to see
them
> > > > finally rewarded for all their hard-work.
> > > > <p>
> > > > But some of us did not come to it that way. Some of us had the
> > > > misfortune
> > > > of spending years in graduate school or in some other challenging
> > > > field
> > > > when
> > > > we could have been racking up years of experience in computer
> > > > networking.
> > > > Perhaps such a career-changer might not be the equal of someone
with
> > > > 20
> > > > years of experience, but he should not even be permitted into your
> > > > data
> > > > center, even though he has proven that he can learn VERY difficult
> > > > material
> > > > through intensive study and unpaid hands-on experience.
> > > >
> > > > I left a job in a dying internet data center dot com to concentrate
> > > > on
> > > > my
> > > > ccie studies, because I found that after a certain point in some
> > > > "industry"
> > > > jobs there are diminishing marginal returns in terms of what you
> > > > learn
> > > > after
> > > > a certain point. If I had looked for another "industry" job at that
> > > > time, I
> > > > would not have found anything that would have permitted me to learn
> > > > what
> > > > I
> > > > have learned in the last nine months or so.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Peter Rosenthal" <perosenthal@hotmail.com> 04/30/02 11:18 AM >>>
> > > > Completely agree with Rob about the dog comment. Although unless
the
> > > > lab
> > > > becomes a Sylvan test it will never become like the MCSE or any
other
> > > > written test. However, I know that no "Junior CCIE" or lab rat with
> > > > a
> > > > few
> > > > months experience is even going to get a badge to get in my data
> > > > center
> > > > let
> > > > alone be responsible for one of my networks. Anyone that lets
> > > > someone
> > > > with
> > > > 16 months experience run their network is simply asking for trouble.
> > > > No
> > > > matter how smart a person is you can't possibly obtain the necessary
> > > > experience to run a complex multiprotocol network in that amount of
> > > > time.
> > > >
> > > > This is not the last we are going to here of this sort of thing.
> > > > There
> > > > will
> > > > be plenty more stories of "janitor to CCIE" or "secretary to CCIE"
> > > > (already
> > > > saw this one and laughed quite a bit) in the span of a few months.
> > > > Schools
> > > > will crop up all over the place advertising get your CCIE in 6
> > > > months.
> > > > The
> > > > CCIE program will once again adapt to the "demand" of people wanting
> > > > to
> > > > take
> > > > the test and make some other dramatic change to funnel us in and out
> > > > of
> > > > the
> > > > exam as quickly as possible while comprising its integrity. Don't
be
> > > > surprised if someday the exam is the point, select and click either
> > > > A,
> > > > B, C,
> > > > or D for the right answer. But hey that's fine. The CCIE will
> > > > someday
> > > > be
> > > > replaced just as all the great certs before it. It was a fun ride
> > > > while
> > > > it
> > > > lasted, but its almost over. Hope you guys enjoyed the ride!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Robert Carter" <Robert.Carter2@telus.com>
> > > > To: <ccielab@groupstud.com>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 9:23 AM
> > > > Subject: RE: CCIE #9240
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Oh boy. I'm gona get some hate mail for this but...
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > === message truncated ===
> > >
> > >
> > > =====
> > > - | |
> > > :|||: :|||:
> > > :|||||||: :|||||||:
> > > .:|||||||||||:.:|||||||||||:.
> > > C i s c o S y s t e m s
> > > www.cisco.com/tac
> > > Empowering the Internet Generation
> > >
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Thu Jun 13 2002 - 10:58:47 GMT-3