From: Antonio (twinturbos@xxxxxxxxxxxx)
Date: Tue Apr 30 2002 - 19:03:44 GMT-3
Well. If it's a decision to choose between a CCIE with 3 years experience
and a non-CCIE with 3 years experience I will choose a CCIE. Everyone knows
the USA and Canada, of which I've worked in both. are BIG on certs. But I
won't choose a CCIE because he/she is a CCIE but because the CCIE has gone
through the gruelling process to pass the CCIE. And that in itself takes
smarts, patience and dedication; all of which are the quite admirable traits
I am looking for.
Technical Manager; CNR
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Rosenthal" <perosenthal@hotmail.com>
To: "Mingzhou Nie" <mnie@yahoo.com>; "Sean Wu" <vpivci@yahoo.com>; "thomas
larus" <tlarus@mwc.edu>; <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> So you're saying that QoS, Voice, etc is harder than Appletalk, DecNet,
ATM
> LANE, and other topics that have been removed? Your argument is quite
> flawed. Newer CCIE's generally have more relavent "lab" knowledge because
> older technologies have since been replaced. But back in 96 or 97 you
> didn't hear about some secretary becoming a CCIE after only 18 months of
> "experience." That's because back then there wasn't all the available
> training, books, bootcamps, NDA violations galore on lists like this, etc.
> Back then people had to rely on real EXPERIENCE. We can argue this all
day.
> The fact remains that the average new CCIE has FAR less REAL experience
than
> the older ones.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mingzhou Nie" <mnie@yahoo.com>
> To: "Sean Wu" <vpivci@yahoo.com>; "'Peter Rosenthal'"
> <perosenthal@hotmail.com>; "thomas larus" <tlarus@mwc.edu>;
> <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 4:20 PM
> Subject: RE: CCIE #9240
>
>
> > I don't agree, Sean. Do you know what had been tested in 1996/7.
> > There's no voice, not Qos, no new techs that has since been added. I
> > won't ever thing earlier CCIEs are better technically.
> >
> >
> > --- Sean Wu <vpivci@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Peter, I agree with you in that experience is important to this
> > > field,
> > > and most network managers tend to think in the same way. But what
> > > about
> > > the quality of experience, in my mind, 2 years' experience with
> > > intensive cisco hands-on is much more valuable than 5 years' first
> > > level
> > > network support.
> > >
> > > Also it is natural to see devaluation of CCIE cert these days. The
> > > devaluation is not only about the certification, it is about the
> > > career.
> > > The career to be a network administrator, no matter how senior you
> > > are,
> > > isn't exicting at all. Following others' tail all my life will drive
> > > me
> > > crazy. But what else can I do as a network administrator? Nothing.
> > >
> > > I respect those CCIEs with small numbers, because they can get it
> > > QUICK
> > > and without much help from bootcamps. Those smart people already got
> > > most out of their certs, and moved on to other area before it cools
> > > down
> > > completely.
> > >
> > > So what is next HOT field? Maybe "DNA Certified Bio-Tech Expert"?
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Peter Rosenthal [mailto:perosenthal@hotmail.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 2:10 PM
> > > To: thomas larus; ccielab@groupstudy.com
> > > Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> > >
> > >
> > > I see your point, but you are greatly exagerrating what I am saying.
> > > Sure
> > > he would be allowed in my data center. But, only under close
> > > supervision as
> > > an apprentice. He certainly would not have uncontrolled access and
> > > that
> > > is
> > > what I meant. I would not require someone to spend years doing
> > > cabling.
> > > I
> > > do not even know what his prior experience is. It would make a HUGE
> > > difference if he spent the last 10 years doing Unix and NT
> > > administration at
> > > a high level or any IT job for that matter. In that case then sure
> > > he
> > > would
> > > be allowed to work on the network with a lot less supervision. But,
> > > if
> > > he's
> > > a 22 yr old that just graduated college and decided to become a CCIE
> > > a
> > > year
> > > later then he's still a lab rat that needs to put in his time. Even
> > > Cisco
> > > recommends a minimum of 2 years experience prior to taking the lab.
> > > Personally, I think someone should have at least 3-4 years of Cisco
> > > experience. Clearly the number of people passing with less than 2
> > > years
> > > experience is growing by the day and I'm sure that trend will
> > > continue
> > > until
> > > it's something that high school kids start obtaining.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "thomas larus" <tlarus@mwc.edu>
> > > To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>; <perosenthal@hotmail.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 12:07 PM
> > > Subject: Re: CCIE #9240
> > >
> > >
> > > "However, I know that no "Junior CCIE" or lab rat with a few months
> > > experience is even going to get a badge to get in my data center let
> > > alone
> > > be responsible for one of my networks."
> > > <p>
> > > Of course you should not make someone who is just really, really good
> > > at
> > > learning this material the chief of your entire network, but you
> > > would
> > > not
> > > even give him a badge to get into your data center to apprentice as a
> > > junior
> > > network engineer. That's just plain offensive. No I guess he needs
> > > to
> > > pay
> > > his dues. He needs to avoid getting his CCIE until he has spent the
> > > requisite 4 years doing physical wiring, changing out the backup
> > > tapes,
> > > ghosting PCs. Then, you will let him get his CCNA and work for
> > > another
> > > four years doing whatever you consider appropriate CCNA-level work.
> > > Then,
> > > after eight years, you would permit him to start studying for the
> > > CCIE,
> > > I
> > > guess.
> > >
> > > I really admire the folks who learned their networking by many
> > > years
> > > of
> > > hard work in, say the military, doing everything from running wire,
> > > programming, setting up radios to making the ATM network run right.
> > > This,
> > > in my view, is an optimal way to build a networking career. Many of
> > > these
> > > people were underpaid for many years, and it is beautiful to see them
> > > finally rewarded for all their hard-work.
> > > <p>
> > > But some of us did not come to it that way. Some of us had the
> > > misfortune
> > > of spending years in graduate school or in some other challenging
> > > field
> > > when
> > > we could have been racking up years of experience in computer
> > > networking.
> > > Perhaps such a career-changer might not be the equal of someone with
> > > 20
> > > years of experience, but he should not even be permitted into your
> > > data
> > > center, even though he has proven that he can learn VERY difficult
> > > material
> > > through intensive study and unpaid hands-on experience.
> > >
> > > I left a job in a dying internet data center dot com to concentrate
> > > on
> > > my
> > > ccie studies, because I found that after a certain point in some
> > > "industry"
> > > jobs there are diminishing marginal returns in terms of what you
> > > learn
> > > after
> > > a certain point. If I had looked for another "industry" job at that
> > > time, I
> > > would not have found anything that would have permitted me to learn
> > > what
> > > I
> > > have learned in the last nine months or so.
> > >
> > >
> > > Peter Rosenthal" <perosenthal@hotmail.com> 04/30/02 11:18 AM >>>
> > > Completely agree with Rob about the dog comment. Although unless the
> > > lab
> > > becomes a Sylvan test it will never become like the MCSE or any other
> > > written test. However, I know that no "Junior CCIE" or lab rat with
> > > a
> > > few
> > > months experience is even going to get a badge to get in my data
> > > center
> > > let
> > > alone be responsible for one of my networks. Anyone that lets
> > > someone
> > > with
> > > 16 months experience run their network is simply asking for trouble.
> > > No
> > > matter how smart a person is you can't possibly obtain the necessary
> > > experience to run a complex multiprotocol network in that amount of
> > > time.
> > >
> > > This is not the last we are going to here of this sort of thing.
> > > There
> > > will
> > > be plenty more stories of "janitor to CCIE" or "secretary to CCIE"
> > > (already
> > > saw this one and laughed quite a bit) in the span of a few months.
> > > Schools
> > > will crop up all over the place advertising get your CCIE in 6
> > > months.
> > > The
> > > CCIE program will once again adapt to the "demand" of people wanting
> > > to
> > > take
> > > the test and make some other dramatic change to funnel us in and out
> > > of
> > > the
> > > exam as quickly as possible while comprising its integrity. Don't be
> > > surprised if someday the exam is the point, select and click either
> > > A,
> > > B, C,
> > > or D for the right answer. But hey that's fine. The CCIE will
> > > someday
> > > be
> > > replaced just as all the great certs before it. It was a fun ride
> > > while
> > > it
> > > lasted, but its almost over. Hope you guys enjoyed the ride!
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Robert Carter" <Robert.Carter2@telus.com>
> > > To: <ccielab@groupstud.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 9:23 AM
> > > Subject: RE: CCIE #9240
> > >
> > >
> > > > Oh boy. I'm gona get some hate mail for this but...
> > > >
> > >
> > === message truncated ===
> >
> >
> > =====
> > - | |
> > :|||: :|||:
> > :|||||||: :|||||||:
> > .:|||||||||||:.:|||||||||||:.
> > C i s c o S y s t e m s
> > www.cisco.com/tac
> > Empowering the Internet Generation
> >
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