From: Brian (signal@xxxxxxxxxx)
Date: Tue Apr 16 2002 - 22:51:51 GMT-3
On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Wes Stevens wrote:
> I added atm to my lab with one 7010 and one 7505. The 7010 with atm, serial
> and eth was $1100. The 7505 with an 8 port serial, 6 port ethernet, vip2-40
> and atm card was $2100. I bought a newbridge vivid atm switch for $200
> instead of the ls1010. The 7010 only supports 11.3 but I get my 12.1
> practice on the 7505. The advantage is that I don't have to pay any rack
> time. The money I will save on rack time will be much more the depriciation
> on these routers. I also plan on taking the security lab after the r&s. The
> 7505 will run ids for the security lab.
And alot of people keep there gear after they pass. I know I did, and
added to it. You never stop learning, and having a gym to play on is
nice! Also with your above investment you can add fastethernet and all
kinds of cool stuff and take advantage of those dollars.
Your $2100 above would barely cover the cost of a 3640 chassis alone.
It would never come close to paying within $1000 dollars of a 2600 series
and ATM module.
Brian
>
>
> >From: "thomas larus" <tlarus@mwc.edu>
> >Reply-To: "thomas larus" <tlarus@mwc.edu>
> >To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>, <signal@shreve.net>
> >Subject: Re: ATM Router Selection (a must read!)
> >Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 17:19:55 -0400
> >
> >I've been thinking a lot about this question, and I really appreciate teh
> >well-written analysis. I have personally concluded that ATM is just fine
> >to practice on cheap rental racks. I mean, for 40-60 dollars a session,
> >you can practice ATM on a rack with 3640s and LS1010 until you are blue in
> >the face, then you can rent another session at the same price and do it
> >again. You can do this at around $50 a session for something like 80
> >sessions before you spend as much as you spent on the cheaper option, the
> >two-upgraded 7000s option. Of course, you can then sell the 7000 routers,
> >which only weigh as much as a cruise ship.
> >
> >Frankly, if you have the cash or credit, and INSIST on having ATM in you
> >home lab, it might be better to just lay out the cash for the 3640 option,
> >but make sure you don't hold on to it forever until the prices decline.
> >
> >But hey, I used to think I would not buy voice stuff, and I went out and
> >bought that. Maybe I will change my tune on ATM, (after I win the 300 plus
> >million dollars Big Game jackpot).
> >
> >I would definitely buy 3640 or 2662 with ATM if I won the lottery.
> >
> >
> >Tom Larus
> >
> >
> > >>> Brian <signal@shreve.net> 04/16/02 16:54 PM >>>
> >How to add ATM to your CCIE lab cheap, Brian Feeny CCIE #8036
> >--------------------------------------------------------------
> >Wanting to add ATM to your lab? Do it cheap! Yes it can be done
> >expensivly or cheaply, both are actually kind of expensive, but very
> >different costs:
> >
> >Typically the first reaction to add ATM is to run out and buy a
> >Lightstream 1010. You don't need to do this. You can practice with
> >just about any ATM switch out there, Bay, Nortel, etc. Even cheap $200
> >ones. Its good to use MultiMode OC3 interfaces since thats what your
> >going to findon most routers used for labs.
> >
> >For those of you hardcore people wanting a Lightstream, be prepared
> >to pay at least $2500 minimum. You will need a Chassis, an ASP, and
> >at least 1 CAM and a few PAMs. The cheapest you can do is:
> >
> >L1010 Chassis
> >L1010-ASP-B-FC1 ASP module
> >WATM-CAM-2P 2-port carrier module
> >WAI-OC3-4MM 4-port OC3 interface
> >
> >The above is probably $2500 minimum, probably more like $4000, and about
> >$1200 of it is in the chassis alone! One way to cut costs is to use a
> >5509 or 5513 catalyst. On these switches, the last 4 slots have
> >packetized backplanes and are essentially L1010 chassis (last 5 slots).
> >You can usually get a 5509 and use it both as your cat5k switch and your
> >l1010 ATM switch! saves a little money.
> >
> >Now, the downside is the switch is the cheapest part anyways :). The real
> >cost of adding ATM to your lab is in the routers.
> >
> >Most people want to go for the throat, and run out and buy modules for
> >2600 or 3600 series. This is when they find the NM-1A-OC3MM modules.
> >These modules cost $2500.00 on the used market! Thats $5000 just for 2
> >modules, and you still need a switch and cables and cant do full mesh!
> >
> >Another alternative is to use older 7000 series routers. The 7000 is the
> >7-slot version and the 7010 is the 5-slot version. Cards are cheap for
> >these and easy to pick up. You can add 4 or 8 port serial cards, 2/4/6
> >port ethernet, 2/4 port token ring, hssi, atm, etc. These routers were
> >backbone routers not too long ago. The downside of the 7000 series is
> >they only goto IOS 11.2. Now for things like frame switching and ATM you
> >can still do alot of stuff up to 11.2, including CLIP, SVC, PVC, etc. And
> >of course you can still get alot of life out of a router like this as a
> >frame switch and basic multiprotocol beast doing some ospf/bgp/etc. Since
> >token and ethernet cards are so cheap (example: a 6-port ethernet card
> >might run you as cheap as $125), you can use it for DLSW and all kinds of
> >bridging (SRT/SRB/etc).
> >
> >They make Fast Eternet blades for these routers as well, so you can do
> >VLAN's form them. CX-FEIP-1TX, CX-FEIP-2TX, CX-FEIP2-1TX, CX-FEIP2-2TX.
> >Sure they are expensive for FastEthernet though, about $800-$1200
> >generally to add a 1 or 2 port blade, but I have some more tips below to
> >possibly make that cheaper!
> >
> >When Cisco had the 7000 series, the routing and switching functions
> >(routing and switching of packets) was broken down into 2 seperate cards:
> >The Route Processor (called the RP) and the Switch Processor (called the
> >SP). Cisco made 2 versions of the RP, the standard RP which had 16MB of
> >memory and then RP64, which had 64MB of memory. For the switch processor,
> >Cisco offered a 500k version and a 2MB version. Also cisco offered a
> >version of the switch processor called the Silicon Switch Processor which
> >could do a new and faster form of switching called silicon switching.
> >
> >These were the kings, and life was good. 7000 reigned for a long time and
> >was quite usefull. But then Cisco came out with a new series, called the
> >7500 series. For this they used the same chassis as the 7000 series! The
> >5 slot version of the 7500 was called the 7505, and the 7 slot version was
> >called the 7507.
> >
> >Instead of using an RP and SP, the 7500 series used one card. This was
> >called the RSP. You see they combined the Routing and Switching function
> >into 1 card, instead of having 2 seperate cards. The first card was
> >called the RSP1 (later came the RSP2, RSP4, and RSP8). The RSP1 could
> >goto 128MB and had the ability to take PCMCIA cards.
> >
> >7500 series were not restricted to the full sized blades of the 7000
> >either. They created a module called a VIP (Versatile Interface
> >Processor), and a VIP had 2 slots on it. Inside a VIP you could install a
> >port adapter (PA). The VIP had its own memory and processor. So you buy
> >putting VIP's in your router, you can have a more distributed setup, with
> >memory, and processor handled by the VIP. Inside a VIP you could stick say
> >1 FastEthernet PA (PA-FE-X) and 1 ATM PA (PA-A1-OC3MM).........so it
> >allowed you to get more milage out of your slots. Those same PA's are the
> >ones that work in the 7200 series, like the 7206. The 7200 series became
> >a VIP-less platform, where the VIP is built into the chassis and all you
> >need is the PA's.
> >
> >Cisco started making the later 7000 modules compatible with the new 7500
> >series. They did this so that peoples investment would be protected if
> >they ever wanted to upgrade to a 7500 they would not have to go and buy
> >all new cards. So the later revisions of most 7000 series cards are 7500
> >compatible. If you ever want to see if your cards are 7500 compatible you
> >can check CCO (serach for "75000 compatibility").
> >
> >Ok, so the 7000 people had a path to migrate to a 7500 series, and would
> >only have to buy the new chassis. Even the power supplies from a 7000
> >would fit into a 7507, and the power supplies from a 7010 would work on a
> >7505............it looked like cisco was doing something good by providing
> >the path.
> >
> >The people with the 7000's were not 100% happy though. There equipment,
> >including there RP's were being End Of Lifed, and IOS support was going to
> >stop with 11.2. Cisco decided to come out with a replacement module for
> >the RP, called the RSP7000. The RSP7000 is very much like an RSP1. It
> >can run the LATEST IOS images. Even better it would allow the 7000 series
> >to use cards especally designed just for the 7500's..........like the
> >VIP's and the PA's that go inside them.
> >
> >The RSP7000 went in the SP slot, and the RP slot would be empty, but Cisco
> >also developed a RSP7000CI card to go into that slot. This card IMHO was
> >just a marketing gimmick. "What do we tell people to do with the empty
> >slot?", "I know! We'll make a card a tell them they need it!" So cisco
> >makes this RSP7000CI card, which is practically a bare circuit card, but
> >has a few chips on it. Its job we are told is to monitor the temparature
> >of the RSP7000 processor to prevent overheating. In al documentation
> >they say you must have this card to use an RSP7000, the truth is you
> >don't. I have run many RSP7000's without this RSP7000CI card. The
> >RSP7000CI can be hard to find as well, and usually fetches about $500 when
> >you do find it.
> >
> >So where am I going with this?
> >
> >If you buy a 7010 with an RP / SP, you have a good router than can use
> >cheap interfaces (frame switch, ATM) but can only goto IOS 11.2. Still a
> >good deal, especially if you only spent a few hundred bucks, or even $1250
> >with ATM and the works.
> >
> >but if you stick a RSP7000 into a 7000 series router, you just turned it
> >into a 7500. yes a 7500. You can use all the cards of the 7500, the
> >latest IOS just like the 7500, and all you suffer from is that you have
> >half the backplane speed (like 622MBps instead of 1.2Gbs). You can use
> >the same PA's and VIP's out there just like 7200's and 7500's.
> >
> >You can add a FastEthernet PA to a 7000 with RSP7000 installed for $250 if
> >you find a good deal! ATM for $250-300, 4-port serial cards for $125!
> >
> >In short you have created an IOS 12.2 capable router, with lots of slots,
> >that can do lots of cool stuff for not so much money.
> >
> >Think about this.............remember those 2600/3600 ATM modules the
> >NM-1A-OC3MM's? They were $2500 each.......just for the module, not
> >counting the cost of the router. Now look at this rough estimate of what
> >it might cost to get a 7000 series enhanced router:
> >
> >7010 $400
> >RP $100
> >SP $100
> >ATM $300
> >
> >So $900.00, thats like 1/3rd the cost of just the module alone in a 3600!
> >
> >Now you say you cant goto IOS 12.2 etc, well consider this:
> >
> >7010 $400
> >RSP7000 $1000
> >VIP2-20 $250
> >PA-A1-OC3MM $500
> >
> >$2150, and you have everything a 3600 could dream to be and more. Cheaper
> >modules, ATM, etc. You could add fastethernet to the above for about $300
> >more! $2150 barely buys you a 3640 chassis.
> >
> >A 3640 can do voice, it does have that over a 7000 series, however, I will
> >post about making router selection for voice in a future posing.
> >
> >$1000-$2000 is alot to spend for routers, I agree. But if your going to
> >have to spend that much, to get ATM, or FastEthernet or what have you.
> >Make those dollars count, consider a 7000 series vs. 3600 series.
> >
> >If anyone would like to discuss any of these options further, contact me
> >off list. I move alot of 7000 series gear, both RSP7000 enabled and not.
> >
> >Brian
> >
> >
> >-----------------------------------------------
> >Brian Feeny, CCIE #8036 e: signal@shreve.net
> >Network Engineer p: 318.222.2638x109
> >ShreveNet Inc. f: 318.221.6612
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