From: Brian (signal@xxxxxxxxxx)
Date: Tue Apr 16 2002 - 22:43:27 GMT-3
On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, thomas larus wrote:
> I've been thinking a lot about this question, and I really appreciate
> teh well-written analysis. I have personally concluded that ATM is just
> fine to practice on cheap rental racks. I mean, for 40-60 dollars a
> session, you can practice ATM on a rack with 3640s and LS1010 until you
> are blue in the face, then you can rent another session at the same
> price and do it again. You can do this at around $50 a session for
> something like 80 sessions before you spend as much as you spent on the
> cheaper option, the two-upgraded 7000s option. Of course, you can then
> sell the 7000 routers, which only weigh as much as a cruise ship.
yes, renting online time is a very good option. some people just *have*
to have ATM in there lab though so you know how that goes. And for
example, like myself, I am a consultant, and having ATM in my lab allows
me to mock up ATM scnerios that my clients are having issues with.
7000's do weight alot. I use 7010's which are the 5 slot models, which
really aren't bad at all. Even lighter than an AGS I believe :)
>
> Frankly, if you have the cash or credit, and INSIST on having ATM in you
> home lab, it might be better to just lay out the cash for the 3640
> option, but make sure you don't hold on to it forever until the prices
> decline.
Not sure if 3640 is a better option. I mean, not only is a 7010 with
RSP7000 cheaper (both can run the latest IOS), but if offers cheaper
interfaces. For example:
Module 3600 7000
4-port serial $1000-1400 $125-150
FastEthernet $400-600 $400-500
ATM $2500 $400-500
Voice $600-1000 N/A
HSSI $1200-1300 $50-100
4-port ethernet $1000-1400 $75-100
I mean, ok, so you would get voice, but just look at the above
prices.......I didn't just pull those out of my rear either, thats actual
market values right now. I will post about it another time, but Voice
IMHO is best left of the 3600's. If you have them, fine, use them. But
3600's come with no LAN interfaces (unlike the 2600's which do come with
LAN interfaces, and can use WIC's without having to buy an NM module). At
minimum you have to add a lan interface of some type, NM-1V (or 2V) and
some VIC's. Voice alone will run you $800 per router. for $800 you can
buy a MC3810 and be done with it. MC3810's are awesome voice routers, and
you can practice everything with them, have built in lan interfaces, 2
serial ports, and add additional routers to your lab which you can run IOS
12.x on, use for DLSW, BGP peers, OSPF peers, etc. Adding voice to an
already existing money pit in your lab does not add the additional route
tables (routers) that help you accomplish some complex scenerios.
And as I point out, 2600's, do have lan interfaces built in, do have WIC
interfaces built in, so you can just add voice to those for a little
cheaper. Alot of people get 2600's anyway (I say 1 2610 (voice) and 1
2620 (voice + fastethernet/trunking), so they can pick up a router that
can do some trunking.
>
> But hey, I used to think I would not buy voice stuff, and I went out and
> bought that. Maybe I will change my tune on ATM, (after I win the 300
> plus million dollars Big Game jackpot).
>
> I would definitely buy 3640 or 2662 with ATM if I won the lottery.
I agree, if money is not an option go with 3600's and an LS1010 loaded up
:) But realize that unlike some situations in router selection, when you
choose a 7010/7000 with an RSP7000 you lose nothing, you are running the
latest IOS, and taking advantage of ATM to the hilt, taking advantage of
ilmi pvc-autodiscovery, BGP, OSPF, any 12.x features.
RSP7000 max mem = 128MB
3600 series max mem = 128MB
Even in a production enviroment, depending on the application, a 7000 is
many times a better selection (when enabled with RSP7000). 3600's are
good for WIC use, Voice, things like that. Want to add some DS3's to your
3600? Never happen. They make no DS3 cards for the 3600 series since
thats not the market it was built for. But with the VIP architecture of
the 7000/7500's you can have access to lots of inexpensive media options.
Brian Feeny
CCIE #8036
>
>
> Tom Larus
>
>
> >>> Brian <signal@shreve.net> 04/16/02 16:54 PM >>>
> How to add ATM to your CCIE lab cheap, Brian Feeny CCIE #8036
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> Wanting to add ATM to your lab? Do it cheap! Yes it can be done
> expensivly or cheaply, both are actually kind of expensive, but very
> different costs:
>
> Typically the first reaction to add ATM is to run out and buy a
> Lightstream 1010. You don't need to do this. You can practice with
> just about any ATM switch out there, Bay, Nortel, etc. Even cheap $200
> ones. Its good to use MultiMode OC3 interfaces since thats what your
> going to findon most routers used for labs.
>
> For those of you hardcore people wanting a Lightstream, be prepared
> to pay at least $2500 minimum. You will need a Chassis, an ASP, and
> at least 1 CAM and a few PAMs. The cheapest you can do is:
>
> L1010 Chassis
> L1010-ASP-B-FC1 ASP module
> WATM-CAM-2P 2-port carrier module
> WAI-OC3-4MM 4-port OC3 interface
>
> The above is probably $2500 minimum, probably more like $4000, and about
> $1200 of it is in the chassis alone! One way to cut costs is to use a
> 5509 or 5513 catalyst. On these switches, the last 4 slots have
> packetized backplanes and are essentially L1010 chassis (last 5 slots).
> You can usually get a 5509 and use it both as your cat5k switch and your
> l1010 ATM switch! saves a little money.
>
> Now, the downside is the switch is the cheapest part anyways :). The real
> cost of adding ATM to your lab is in the routers.
>
> Most people want to go for the throat, and run out and buy modules for
> 2600 or 3600 series. This is when they find the NM-1A-OC3MM modules.
> These modules cost $2500.00 on the used market! Thats $5000 just for 2
> modules, and you still need a switch and cables and cant do full mesh!
>
> Another alternative is to use older 7000 series routers. The 7000 is the
> 7-slot version and the 7010 is the 5-slot version. Cards are cheap for
> these and easy to pick up. You can add 4 or 8 port serial cards, 2/4/6
> port ethernet, 2/4 port token ring, hssi, atm, etc. These routers were
> backbone routers not too long ago. The downside of the 7000 series is
> they only goto IOS 11.2. Now for things like frame switching and ATM you
> can still do alot of stuff up to 11.2, including CLIP, SVC, PVC, etc. And
> of course you can still get alot of life out of a router like this as a
> frame switch and basic multiprotocol beast doing some ospf/bgp/etc. Since
> token and ethernet cards are so cheap (example: a 6-port ethernet card
> might run you as cheap as $125), you can use it for DLSW and all kinds of
> bridging (SRT/SRB/etc).
>
> They make Fast Eternet blades for these routers as well, so you can do
> VLAN's form them. CX-FEIP-1TX, CX-FEIP-2TX, CX-FEIP2-1TX, CX-FEIP2-2TX.
> Sure they are expensive for FastEthernet though, about $800-$1200
> generally to add a 1 or 2 port blade, but I have some more tips below to
> possibly make that cheaper!
>
> When Cisco had the 7000 series, the routing and switching functions
> (routing and switching of packets) was broken down into 2 seperate cards:
> The Route Processor (called the RP) and the Switch Processor (called the
> SP). Cisco made 2 versions of the RP, the standard RP which had 16MB of
> memory and then RP64, which had 64MB of memory. For the switch processor,
> Cisco offered a 500k version and a 2MB version. Also cisco offered a
> version of the switch processor called the Silicon Switch Processor which
> could do a new and faster form of switching called silicon switching.
>
> These were the kings, and life was good. 7000 reigned for a long time and
> was quite usefull. But then Cisco came out with a new series, called the
> 7500 series. For this they used the same chassis as the 7000 series! The
> 5 slot version of the 7500 was called the 7505, and the 7 slot version was
> called the 7507.
>
> Instead of using an RP and SP, the 7500 series used one card. This was
> called the RSP. You see they combined the Routing and Switching function
> into 1 card, instead of having 2 seperate cards. The first card was
> called the RSP1 (later came the RSP2, RSP4, and RSP8). The RSP1 could
> goto 128MB and had the ability to take PCMCIA cards.
>
> 7500 series were not restricted to the full sized blades of the 7000
> either. They created a module called a VIP (Versatile Interface
> Processor), and a VIP had 2 slots on it. Inside a VIP you could install a
> port adapter (PA). The VIP had its own memory and processor. So you buy
> putting VIP's in your router, you can have a more distributed setup, with
> memory, and processor handled by the VIP. Inside a VIP you could stick say
> 1 FastEthernet PA (PA-FE-X) and 1 ATM PA (PA-A1-OC3MM).........so it
> allowed you to get more milage out of your slots. Those same PA's are the
> ones that work in the 7200 series, like the 7206. The 7200 series became
> a VIP-less platform, where the VIP is built into the chassis and all you
> need is the PA's.
>
> Cisco started making the later 7000 modules compatible with the new 7500
> series. They did this so that peoples investment would be protected if
> they ever wanted to upgrade to a 7500 they would not have to go and buy
> all new cards. So the later revisions of most 7000 series cards are 7500
> compatible. If you ever want to see if your cards are 7500 compatible you
> can check CCO (serach for "75000 compatibility").
>
> Ok, so the 7000 people had a path to migrate to a 7500 series, and would
> only have to buy the new chassis. Even the power supplies from a 7000
> would fit into a 7507, and the power supplies from a 7010 would work on a
> 7505............it looked like cisco was doing something good by providing
> the path.
>
> The people with the 7000's were not 100% happy though. There equipment,
> including there RP's were being End Of Lifed, and IOS support was going to
> stop with 11.2. Cisco decided to come out with a replacement module for
> the RP, called the RSP7000. The RSP7000 is very much like an RSP1. It
> can run the LATEST IOS images. Even better it would allow the 7000 series
> to use cards especally designed just for the 7500's..........like the
> VIP's and the PA's that go inside them.
>
> The RSP7000 went in the SP slot, and the RP slot would be empty, but Cisco
> also developed a RSP7000CI card to go into that slot. This card IMHO was
> just a marketing gimmick. "What do we tell people to do with the empty
> slot?", "I know! We'll make a card a tell them they need it!" So cisco
> makes this RSP7000CI card, which is practically a bare circuit card, but
> has a few chips on it. Its job we are told is to monitor the temparature
> of the RSP7000 processor to prevent overheating. In al documentation
> they say you must have this card to use an RSP7000, the truth is you
> don't. I have run many RSP7000's without this RSP7000CI card. The
> RSP7000CI can be hard to find as well, and usually fetches about $500 when
> you do find it.
>
> So where am I going with this?
>
> If you buy a 7010 with an RP / SP, you have a good router than can use
> cheap interfaces (frame switch, ATM) but can only goto IOS 11.2. Still a
> good deal, especially if you only spent a few hundred bucks, or even $1250
> with ATM and the works.
>
> but if you stick a RSP7000 into a 7000 series router, you just turned it
> into a 7500. yes a 7500. You can use all the cards of the 7500, the
> latest IOS just like the 7500, and all you suffer from is that you have
> half the backplane speed (like 622MBps instead of 1.2Gbs). You can use
> the same PA's and VIP's out there just like 7200's and 7500's.
>
> You can add a FastEthernet PA to a 7000 with RSP7000 installed for $250 if
> you find a good deal! ATM for $250-300, 4-port serial cards for $125!
>
> In short you have created an IOS 12.2 capable router, with lots of slots,
> that can do lots of cool stuff for not so much money.
>
> Think about this.............remember those 2600/3600 ATM modules the
> NM-1A-OC3MM's? They were $2500 each.......just for the module, not
> counting the cost of the router. Now look at this rough estimate of what
> it might cost to get a 7000 series enhanced router:
>
> 7010 $400
> RP $100
> SP $100
> ATM $300
>
> So $900.00, thats like 1/3rd the cost of just the module alone in a 3600!
>
> Now you say you cant goto IOS 12.2 etc, well consider this:
>
> 7010 $400
> RSP7000 $1000
> VIP2-20 $250
> PA-A1-OC3MM $500
>
> $2150, and you have everything a 3600 could dream to be and more. Cheaper
> modules, ATM, etc. You could add fastethernet to the above for about $300
> more! $2150 barely buys you a 3640 chassis.
>
> A 3640 can do voice, it does have that over a 7000 series, however, I will
> post about making router selection for voice in a future posing.
>
> $1000-$2000 is alot to spend for routers, I agree. But if your going to
> have to spend that much, to get ATM, or FastEthernet or what have you.
> Make those dollars count, consider a 7000 series vs. 3600 series.
>
> If anyone would like to discuss any of these options further, contact me
> off list. I move alot of 7000 series gear, both RSP7000 enabled and not.
>
> Brian
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------
> Brian Feeny, CCIE #8036 e: signal@shreve.net
> Network Engineer p: 318.222.2638x109
> ShreveNet Inc. f: 318.221.6612
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