From: Jim Brown (Jim.Brown@xxxxxxxxxxxxx)
Date: Thu Dec 27 2001 - 13:20:55 GMT-3
Bryan,
I wouldn't have responded, but when someone attacks me personally I won't
sit by quietly.
First of all, I have no idea where you were able to infer I want something
for nothing? I would be very interested in how you arrived at this
conclusion. I state quite the contrary, I only expect QUALITY. I want what I
pay for. I have personally invested $20K in equipment and materials over the
past year so your initial speculation is waaaaaay off base.
Second, nice grandstanding move to post back to the list, myself, Marc, and
Brad. I notice in your post about passing the lab earlier this month you
make no mention whatsoever about BootCamp. If BootCamp is so critical why
didn't you reveal this piece of the puzzle in your post? What establishes
you to make judgment on what are good labs? Have you compared the Lab
Practice Kit, CCIE Practical Studies, or ECP1 material? If you only look at
one source, and this is all you know, how do you know if it is bad or good?
Back it up with facts please.
Don't make off the cuff comments without backing them up with facts. Hold
on, here I go...... Cisco is going out of business, the routing and
switching program is dying, Nortel will rule the world. You worked for a
CCIE training partner and it took you three attempts? You must not know what
you are doing! Do you see how it works now? It is just noise without
something to back it up. DON'T INFER and play nice!
Lastly, on your comment about making a better candidate because you must
research the errors in the BootCamp material. Tell me how to research this
Einstein. "Configure a File Server and Print Server SAP for each router (per
Diagram)", without anything on the Diagram! How the heck will this make me a
better candidate? What freaking research should I do to solve this one! The
only skill this will develop is my mind reading ability.
Nothing is perfect and people make mistakes, I know I've made my share, just
FIX THEM before everyone complains.
I hate to tell Marc and Brad this, but photocopy protected paper isn't going
to stop anyone who is determined to illegally distribute material. The only
people who are being screwed are the legitimate customers. Just accept the
fact that the material will be pirated and address the needs of the
legitimate customers with e-mail or website delivery. Couldn't they
digitally sign .PDF files or something to uniquely identify distributions?
If the materials are soooo great why is my inbox full of people saying,
"Amen brother!" My grandfather was a salesman and he always said a great
product sells itself. If it is so great why is there always some noise about
BootCamp materials followed with Marc and Brad in defense of their product.
I feel like, If there that good they wouldn't need to be defended.
My original post was merely informational in the hopes that someone would
exhaust the cheaper sources of study material first. We all need to save
money. If you don't need to save money Bryan, I can give you an address and
you can send some my way. I also noted if these other, cheaper labs didn't
satisfy your appetite then move onto BootCamp. This was my OPINION with some
facts about why I thought this. Bryan, are you beginning to see a pattern.
I have a sneaking suspicion I'll never get the opportunity to see Labs 21
and 22 without some crazy charge or delay. This is a statement without any
basis on fact, just a feeling.
This is my final post on the subject. My original intent was to post some
information along to future candidates and hopefully identify some areas for
improvement in the BootCamp product. Say what you will I won't waste anymore
bandwidth on the subject.
If someone would like to discuss it offline, I'm more than happy to engage
them.
-----Original Message-----
From: Bryan Osoro [mailto:bosoro@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 9:27 PM
To: 'Jim Brown '; cisco@groupstudy.com
Cc: bellis@optsys.net; 'Marc Russell'
Subject: OT RE: BootCamp Saga and Suggested Study Material (longish)
Jim,
First I would like to thank Marc Russell, Brad Ellis, and CCBootcamp for
their help in my struggle for the CCIE Lab. Second, I would like to thank
all the people of this list that also appreciate the hard work these guys
have put into helping hundreds of CCIE's attain their dream.
I hope this type of e-mail does not discourage CCbootcamp.com from coming
out with quality products, because the majority of us DO appreciate what you
have put out.
I know that for myself if I did not have something to guide me in my
studies with hands on, I might not have passed the lab. You should
appreciate errors (technical or not). If you can find the errors and find
the correct answer somewhere, then you are that much better off than had you
never found it. You might not have researched Custom Queueing or Priority
Queueing quite the same.
You sound like you are the type of person that wants something for nothing
(i.e you want them to give you the exact lab that you are going
to see in the CCIE lab). The CCIE Lab can throw ANYTHING that can be
configured on a 2500, 2600, 3600, 4000/4500, 3900, or Cat5000 at you. There
are things that have been removed, but would it really kill you to
know them? Is every client going to have a pure Cisco environment that
does not include X.25, LANE, Appletalk, and so on? I think not. Believe it
or not, there are some companies out there that can't afford, or don't need
to upgrade their systems for a while, and may include "outdated
technologies."
Who ever said the pursuit to the CCIE would be cheap. If this test were
even remotely near any other test out there as far as expense goes,
there would not be a mere 7,000 worldwide in a 9 year span. The MCSE2k
program has been around maybe a year or two, and there are already 40,000,
most likely more by now.
CCbootcamp is a business, and they can't just hand everything out, if they
did, they wouldn't be around. When you buy a IOS Image from Cisco do you
write them complaining when you want to download the latest and greatest
image and feature set and have to pay for it?
And I know I'm not the only person to appreciate their service, if nothing
else just look at their customer review page to see people they have helped.
I don't think I know many CCIE's that have reached this goal without their
help.
CCbootcamp is a study resource, and with that being said, they might not be
helpful to you. For a lot of people on this list I know it has been an
invaluable one.
I hope you too achieve the goal of CCIE that so many of us have worked
so hard for. When you pass the lab completely on your own by reading
books, and a few book labs, I'd like to hear about it, and applaud your
success.
Regards
Bryan Osoro CCIE #8548
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Brown
To: 'cisco@groupstudy.com'; ccielab@groupstudy.com
Sent: 12/26/01 5:13 PM
Subject: BootCamp Saga and Suggested Study Material (longish)
I try to stay out of, or ignore conversations such as the one that has
transpired over the course of the past week.
But I can't hold my tongue anymore.
I purchased a subscription to BootCamp months back in preparation for the
lab. Everyone proclaimed how important they were in pursuit of the numbers.
I followed the rest of the flock and plunked down my money and received my
package. Don't Do It!
I quickly became disenchanted with the material. It is littered with errors
and outdated technology not to mention poorly or incorrectly worded
questions. If someone can tell me how to assign traffic to the highest
priority in custom queuing or adjust the default datagram size of a priority
queue I will eat Doyle's Volume I and II in a single sitting. This is just
one of many examples. Don't get me started on this one. Some of these labs
are from '95 where is the errata?
How many of you have subscriptions to a magazine or book club? Do you have
milk delivered to your home? Do you call and ask the publisher for next
months issue! With BootCamp you must call and REQUEST the new labs. Why
doesn't BootCamp send the lab, without my asking, when a new one is
produced? Isn't this what a subscription is? They sure have my address,
phone number, and e-mail. They had no problem acquiring this information
when payment was rendered and from what I understand they want to charge for
every faxed page on new labs!
They refuse lab e-mail delivery to protect their material. If anyone is
intending on illegally distributing the material, a fax or mailed copy isn't
going to stop them! Just e-mail me the @#!%$ new labs and keep your costs
down!
Lets ask ourselves a few questions. If these labs are soooo great would you
pay $800 for the set? How about $1000. I find myself saying no way. Now lets
compare this with the defunct, other piece of the "CCIE mandatory puzzle",
ECP1. Would I pay $5000 for ECP1? How about $6000? You bet your bottom
dollar I would. That freaking class was awesome and taught me so much in a
short period of time as well as boosted my confidence.
This is the sort of litmus test I use to determine how critical the need is,
or if my perceived value is really in a product. My gauge is.... how much
farther would I be willing to go, or pay for a particular item.
All I really want are correct and concise labs, with current material,
delivered to me as the should be under guise of a subscription.
I know I could create better labs, I'll admit it, I just to stinking lazy to
do it.
I don't even use BootCamp anymore. I took a chance and purchased the set. I
screwed up, or maybe that is all that was available at the time. In any
event, I sure wish I had my money back and I hadn't laid eyes on them.
---- END RANT -------
To anyone who is seeking material. My personal recommendation would be to
purchase the CCIE Lab Practice Kit and the new CCIE Practical Studies. Start
with the Practice Kit and complete the BGP Lab and the OSPF Labs. If you
UNDERSTAND both of these you have enough understanding for the actual lab.
In my opinion these are GREAT teaching labs. They also have a few errors,
but the content is to the point without the fluff. The Lab Practice Kit
includes step-by-step explanations towards the solution. I wish all labs
were documented in this fashion it makes learning easier. Do the BGP lab and
you will know BGP.
Next, pick up the new CCIE Practical Studies from Cisco Press. You won't be
disappointed. The total cost for the two items is around $140USD. If you
complete the six labs at the end of the Cisco Press Book and two of the four
in the Lab Practice kit you should be well on your way, if not ready, for
the real deal. If you find yourself yearning for more material, then by all
means purchase BootCamp material, but I would use this as an expensive last
resort.
My only goal is to receive my numbers in the most economical fashion
possible and according to my calculations BootCamp doesn't figure into the
equation. I'm still waiting for that next lab hoping it will be better than
the last and absolve my disappointment. Maybe 21 and 22 will be the cure I
need.
These are only my personal opinions and I have donned my flame retardant
underwear for responses.
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