From: Matt Wagner (miguknom@xxxxxxxxxxx)
Date: Thu Oct 11 2001 - 15:12:13 GMT-3
Amen, Bob and Jay. I don't get Marc pushing that crap here. As a matter of
fact, I frankly think that the whole "CCIE training school" thing represents
an NDA violation. Let me elaborate since I know I am about to get flamed.
Sorry in advance to all the spam haters, but this has bugged me for a long
time. BTW, I have never paid one of these places to teach me how to pass
the lab. Here is my elaboration:
1. NDA: In order to make money selling lab preparation, customers would have
to believe that the prep lab is similar to the real lab. That means that
they go to your class, then they take the real lab, and say, "Wow, those
were pretty similar!" Then they would recommend the class to others. Well,
if your class is a lot like the real thing, how did it get that way. If you
got information from someone that took the lab, then they and you are
cheating. If you took the lab yourself and now you design labs, you are
passing on what you know in a kind of veiled way. Surely you are not
designing a lab that is in no way relevant to the CCIE lab info that you
have, right? How can this not be a violation of the NDA at some level?
That seems so easy to understand. It's no different than taking an MCSE
class. You learn how to pass the test, not how to build networks.
2. Value: There has been a lot of moaning of late about the potential of
the cert to lose its value with the recent changes. What makes the cert
valuable? Employers who hire CCIEs finding out that they got their money's
worth, that's what. As long as that happens, and until there are hundreds
of thousands of QUALIFIED CCIEs, the cert will have value. What detracts
from the cert? People who pass the lab and don't know how to sell, design,
build, or fix networks. The things that can cause that are the test getting
easier, braindumps, and "get your CCIE guranteed" classes. If booksmart
people take a class and learn how to configure BGP in a lab environement
with a half a dozen devices, they might pass the test. Ultimately, they
will weaken the value of the cert.
3. Loyalty to the cert: First, I do not want to have anyone believe that
the cert program means more to me than a way to learn, progress, measure my
skills, and get more pay. If I pass and then the pass rate drops, good for
me. Anyone who thinks otherwise is silly. So anyone who wants to help
people that don't deserve a CCIE (eg., haven't earned it) is bad in my view.
That's what I mean by loyalty to the cert. I mean loyalty to the value of
the cert. These schools don't make money by creating valuable engieers. I
AM NOT SAYING that all people who go through these schools are not good
engineers. That would be absurd. But I am saying that the intention of
these schools is untimatley to make money at my expense (assuming that I
ever actually pass).
Thanks Enid for stopping down NDA violators and their profiteers (like
Marc). Marc, your questions were calculated to give people an advantage in
studying for the lab that can only be gained from firsthand lab experience.
You risk damaging the careeers, ambitions, and even marriages of anyone
gullible enough to reply to you favorably. If you don't know what I mean,
then I'm sure someone who is sacrificing like I am to get this cert will
elaborate.
I am going to go put on my fireproof suit now.
Matt
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Bob Chahal" <bob.chahal@ntlworld.com>
Reply-To: "Bob Chahal" <bob.chahal@ntlworld.com>
To: "Jay Hennigan" <jay@west.net>, <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
Subject: Re: 1-day lab format
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 10:48:30 +0100
Marc,
I used your labs and found them invaluable. IMO they are already a kind of
"one-day" format. The labs need revamping anyway and with a few educated
guesses turning them into marketable "one-day" labs shouldn't be a problem
should it?
I have to agree with Jay, what you're asking for is inciting people to break
the NDA. I don't suppose many will though.
Bob Chahal
CCIE# 8233
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay Hennigan" <jay@west.net>
To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 7:40 AM
Subject: RE: 1-day lab format
> On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, Marc Russell wrote:
>
> > So, do you really feel that this type of knowledge really gives someone
an
> > unfair advantage? I think this pushes the NDA to an extreme that wasn't
> > intended.
>
> Yes, I feel that the type of information that you were requesting in
> your original post would give someone an unfair advantage. And, yes,
> I feel that revealing it would definitely be an NDA violation.
>
> > I suppose next it will be considered NDA to discuss what you ate for
lunch
> > during your exam.
>
> TTBOMK, lunch is not served in the exam room. At San Jose, you were
given
> a voucher for day one lunch and escorted to the cafeteria where there was
a
> varied menu. On day two you were on your own for lunch. I would presume
> that this may vary by location, but that the candidates taking the
one-day
> exam would likely be escorted to lunch. Frantic phone calls to TAC from
> the payphones in the Cisco cafeteria are not considered good form.
>
> > My interpretation of technical content would be something more like
this
> > "Hey did you hear that OSPF virtual-links now count for 90% of your
score,
> > better know that concept cold." If a CCIE candidate is going to
actually
> > gain an advantage by knowing the extent of preconfiguration of basic
IP,
> > interfaces, etc. he/she is going to fail miserably and it is a
non-issue.
> > How would this information help them pass the test? I guess I just
don't
get
> > it. Help me see the light.
>
> Look at what you asked for:
>
> * We just want to know as to what extent the network is pre-configured.
> * Is it just basic IP addressing and activated interfaces or more complex
> * issues like ISDN setup, frame-relay setup, or basic routing protocols,
> * etc.
>
> Look at bullet point three of the confidentiality agreement found at
>
>
http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/625/ccie/ccie_program/confidentiality_agrmt
.pdf
>
> * That You may not disclose the Exam questions or answers or discuss any
of
> the content of the Exam Materials with any person, without prior
written
> approval of Cisco;
>
> IMHO, the extent to which the network is preconfigured and the specifics
> you asked about with regard to IP addressing, interfaces, ISDN and frame-
> relay, and basic routing protocols are indeed very clearly "the content
of
> the Exam materials" as defined by the NDA.
>
> > I have customers and competitors all going crazy over this 1-day format
> > deal. It doesn't make any difference, but it is a marketing issue I
need
to
> > address. The skills, preparation, and knowledge required will be the
same
> > for either test format. If I can actually get a customer on the phone
and
> > explain it to them they usually understand that it doesn't matter.
>
> The CCIE program is not, to the best of my knowledge, obligated in any
> way to accommodate the customers or competitors of those in the business
> of providing exam preparation services. In some ways the relationship
> is adversarial.
>
> > It is just a customer perception problem I need to deal with. However,
going
> > through all of our older labs and updating them will be a lot of work
and I
> > would prefer to do it only once.
>
> I would approach it within the guidelines of what is on the Cisco
website,
> and not ask for people to risk violating NDA. Perhaps the newer CCIE
> Assessor may be of value.
>
> Let me provide an observation, based on having taken the lab more than
> once and having participated in this forum for a long time. There are
> some technologies and scenarios I have seen discussed here frequently,
> often in excruciating detail, that I have never seen in the lab. There
> were things I saw in the lab that haven't been touched upon here at all.
>
> For me or anyone to provide information such as "You're wasting your
> time studying 'X'", or "You ought to know how to do 'Y'", based on the
> experiences of having seen the lab would clearly be wrong, do you not
> agree?
>
> Yet what you're asking here is for information as to how the lab is
> preconfigured. That is fundamentally part of the exam materials and
> would give candidates inside knowledge of what not to study because it
> is provided preconfigured.
>
> --
> Jay Hennigan - CCIE #7880 - Network Administration - jay@west.net
> NetLojix Communications, Inc. - http://www.netlojix.com/
> WestNet: Connecting you to the planet. 805 884-6323
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